Charlotte Ward: 0:13
Hello and welcome to episode 319 of the Customer Support Leaders Podcast. I'm Charlotte Ward. Today Urika Pitchke talks about where customer success and customer support meet. Today I'd like to welcome back after six years, Ulrika Pitchke. Ulrika, it's so lovely to see you again after such a long gap. How are you doing?
Ulrike Pitschke: 0:42
Hi, good to see you, Charlotte. Yeah, it's I can't believe it's been six years already. Uh I've I'm good. I'm doing well. I hope you're too.
Charlotte Ward: 0:52
Yeah, thank you so much. Yeah, I can't believe where the time has gone. Um what are you up to nowadays? Maybe we should actually start with a reintroduction.
Ulrike Pitschke: 1:01
True. Yeah, maybe if you've heard the podcast in 2020, you know that I've been working in a customer support role, leading a customer support team. And this slightly changed now. So I'm leading a customer success team at the moment at Staff Base, um, which is a software as a service company. And yeah, it's it's really exciting to see um what the differences are, but also what the two have in common, and especially for leading uh a customer-facing team. So that's why we thought we might talk again and just uh yeah, show what uh what both roles are about, what they have in common, what differences they bring.
Charlotte Ward: 1:41
Yeah, I love the I love the idea when you mentioned it of where customer success and customer support meet. Because I feel like certainly across the industry, I see it all the time on LinkedIn, and I've talked about it on the podcast at various times up to six years ago. Um, we we've talked quite a lot about the differences between these roles, and I I do think the differences are quite well established. Like I think we all sort of fundamentally know what the differences are, but there is a place in the middle where they meet and the lines blur, and it's not just about working together, it's about establishing who does what, but also how to work together particularly well, and particularly in a sort of um enterprise, an enterprise level where you do have that quite potentially quite long periods of collaboration between these two functions, right?
Ulrike Pitschke: 2:36
That's true. And also we have still a lot of companies out there that are very small and that are combining those two roles, which is perfectly fine at a certain state of evolution of a company where you have like 10 people overall, you don't need to separate success and support because it makes more sense to have it in one department. But with a scale up, you come to a point where it might make sense to differentiate the roles and also the responsibilities. Like for us, the support is mostly uh technical. So if the customer has a technical issue, we send them straight to support. But if they want to discuss something more strategic or if we are enabling new features, driving adoption or something like that, that's clearly with the CSM. And I think it's interesting to see what point is the right one to do this differentiation as well. Because I've worked in startups and scale-ups now, and yeah, just experiencing both worlds is really it's really interesting.
Charlotte Ward: 3:34
And and there there is an interesting um uh point at which you really have to think about the people you're hiring into those roles, because uh if you separate them and you have people who've been sitting across both functions, you're hiring a fairly kind of generalist skill set, aren't you? But then as the functions divide, those people kind of have to pick one side or the other, and and and you have to develop different skills in those people if you want to retain those people in one function or the other. But also then you're hiring differently as well, aren't you? Once you have made that split.
Ulrike Pitschke: 4:16
Yeah. I mean, in support, you really have to focus on efficiency and people that like to have a workload in the sense of, okay, there are the tickets and I'm I'm working on them and I will reduce the numbers standing there. And in in customer success, you maybe really need a different way of working. So it's more like the strategic, okay, where which account am I going to focus on? Because you don't have the, usually you don't have the customer coming to you. I mean, we have that as well. But in success, you usually are more like the proactive part, saying, okay, which customers am I going to prioritize next quarter? Which am I going to focus on? And then support, you have like the customers coming to you, and you're like the firefighter in most cases and need to work most efficiently to solve their requests. So it's really a different style of working and therefore as well a different kind of person you probably need for this
Ulrike Pitschke: 5:10
role.
Charlotte Ward: 5:10
Yeah, yeah. And the other thing is basically, you know, given what um given that landscape of different focuses for each of those roles, um, for each of those functions, the the timelines that each of the functions are working to, the cadences, the prioritization, all of that is quite different. And so to bring this back to where the two functions meet, how do um CSMs work with support when support is ticket bashing all day and is prioritizing ticket ticket by ticket by ticket? And CSMs are doing, you know, to your point, a quarter's planning and are concentrating on three or five or ten customers, or however many customers it might be, whereas support has all customers. How do yeah, how like what do the conversations look like in the middle there? Because they have to communicate, don't
Charlotte Ward: 6:06
they?
Ulrike Pitschke: 6:06
Yeah, obviously um the custom success managers usually get CC'd on support tickets, so they automatically knew what's going on uh with their customers, which tickets are open, what's the actual status. And where they actually really meet is the whole product part. So if we have a new feature or if we have a new um, yeah, a new way forward, then we need to align success and support. And then they can both join from the customer-facing side and say, okay, our customers need it that way, where product might not have this deep understanding of uh customers' needs. So we can like join and be there together and say, okay, now um this is not going to work because, and that's usually where customer success and customer support are really strong together in shaping like timelines, roadmaps. Um, we have this topic very often of like beta features. If you have a closed beta or something, we need to align what happens when the customer has a question to this feature and stuff like that. So that's where they really meet in the daily business.
Charlotte Ward: 7:13
Yeah, yeah. I I think that's spot on. The the uh the feedback from the field, one way or another, feedback from the customer base, the real experiences. Support tends to have all the numbers, doesn't it? It tends to have how many, how many tickets hit this part of the product, what the kind of profile of those tickets was, exactly like the technical landscape, and then the the numbers that support can put to that is one thing, but the experiences that customer success can and the narratives that they can bring to that conversation in terms of like it's this profile of customer. And when I get on the phone to them, this is the thing they shout about the most. Um, this is the thing that's most important to them, you know. Um, even if the ticket numbers don't necessarily reflect that, but bring making that a whole packaged piece of feedback is quite powerful.
Ulrike Pitschke: 8:10
Yeah. Yeah, so we have one major change at the moment in our product, and that's where we really need to work together because the CSMs need to do the enablement, and the support team can already flag, okay, I see a risk here, or this is what results out of this change, and this will bring a massive load of tickets or something like that. So we can combine like the enablement and the focus of the enablement with the preventative move for support that they don't uh receive like tons of tickets on one topic. Uh, so that's where we really align and move forward in in the same direction.
Charlotte Ward: 8:52
Is there anything that um support can do to like in the in the in the quarterly planning for any CSM when they're thinking about who they're going to concentrate on, what their priorities are from their portfolio this coming quarter? Aside from just being copied on tickets, which I think as you're as you said is quite standard practice, particularly at the enterprise level, particularly in SAS environments. Um what else can support do to help CSMs at that in that planning moment?
Ulrike Pitschke: 9:26
Yeah, I mean, we can always do like a kind of review. We also do these reviews with our customers and we can just check in with them which problems occurred in the last quarter or something and what's the way forward. And we also on a regular basis have uh customer support joining, uh customer calls if there's something they have the feeling they can't solve like on first or second level. When it gets more technical, um they are always happy to jump on a call and then the CSM will be there as well. So we can, for example, if there's a renewal ongoing or we will have a renewal in the next quarter, we can like prevent uh escalating or turn uh when saying, okay, we will tackle this problem now and we will take support on the boat and the CSM in one boat, and then they can talk to the customer together and yeah, have uh have a way forward with them. So they will hopefully renew their contract and be happy.
Charlotte Ward: 10:21
Yeah, those kind of calls are really um really beneficial for everyone. The ticket gets solved, we we move a step closer to renewal, the customer's a bit happier. Yeah, yeah. Um in terms of like inside the business, um, feedback is one, but is there are there any other moments at which these two functions like where they shine together, do you think?
Ulrike Pitschke: 10:49
Yeah, I mean I would probably say every topic that involves a customer-facing for you would need both sides, would need CSM and support. So if there's like I mean, we change our strategy like quite regularly, adapting to the market and stuff. And then we really need the feedback from support and from the CSMs, but also from the account executives. I mean, they are also part of this game to to get the feedback together and then build the strategy ideally based on on customer feedback and on prospect feedback.
Charlotte Ward: 11:26
Yeah, yeah. Um, do they um do support and cs um share platforms well, do you think?
Ulrike Pitschke: 11:37
Yeah, we uh we use sendesk. Um so our CSMs are also, they also have an account for Sandusk, so they can always have a look in the tickets. We also have some CSMs actively using uh send us based on the size of their customers. So we have some customers that get um uh support where send desk from the CSMs as well. So that's that's probably the place to be. And then we of course have Slack um where we have like shared channels where the support team can get help from the CSMs and vice versa if there's something unclear. So that works very well for us.
Charlotte Ward: 12:16
Mm-hmm. Yeah, yeah. Um, do you think that um the do you think that the moment when these two functions split to bring us back to the earlier part of this conversation, is is a painful one? Do you think that splitting that, you know, that moment where you really are scaling, um, not just from a hiring perspective, but from, you know, getting the your current staff to move in one direction or the other. Do you think that's painful internally? And do you think there's stuff that we can do to mitigate how that how our customers experience that moment?
Ulrike Pitschke: 12:58
Yeah, I mean, for the customers, you really need to educate them to get their head around what what is a support question and what is a success question. So I think that's hard actually, um, to make this difference and also to make it internally. So who takes ownership for which request? Um, I think that's that's something that needs really thinking through in the beginning, um, to just have these clear boundaries, not saying that they don't talk to each other, but that it's clear this request is a support request, and this request is more like success. Um and for the people, I think internally they will probably have a focus and a desire which role would work best for them. So you have the people that are more like broader and more see the bigger picture for for the strategic advisory. And then you have the ones that really like to hands-on work on tickets, get things done. So that's something that you experience much quicker, probably when working in support than working in success. We have like the you already said it, you have these longer cycles. Uh, you talk on topics much longer than you do in support, and then you can say, okay, I've solved X tickets on that day. And that's an experience you would probably not have in customer success management.
Charlotte Ward: 14:22
Yeah, yeah. Um training the customers you mentioned there. There is that, uh and I've I've seen it quite a lot over the years, like you get to this point where you are aware that you're just telling customers, um, or and like this is an unideal state, to be clear, but like um you you realize that there are points where you're saying, no, that's a support question, can you file a ticket? Um and in my experience, the the um the moment when you're doing that, it f feels it feels a bit to me like um kind of frustrating, but also a bit I feel a bit sad somehow. I feel a bit sad. I feel a bit sad on many levels. I feel like a bit a bit sad that it's not that obvious necessarily to customers who have experienced your business super early stage, whereas it might be obvious to you. Um but but also that if you're if you're getting to that point where you're being that directive with a customer, um I would question whether I should just raise the ticket for them. Which doesn't train them, gets us nowhere. Yeah. Um but but also I I I don't know, there's a little bit of me that kind of feels um we could probably do something better for our customers as well than just send them to support. And I to be clear, I work in support, people should be coming to support, but I feel like it's a little I from I I feel like from the customer perspective, you must feel like you're being passed around a bit.
Ulrike Pitschke: 16:07
Yeah, I understand it. Um it feels like a bit like rejection. And from our side, it's like saying no to the customer. So if you if you um say, okay, no, I can't handle this, please go to support. Um but what really had I mean, I haven't been part of this transition, um, so I can't really share experience. But what I think makes it better is when they experience that they get their solution much quicker, when they send uh a support ticket. And instead of like waiting for ages for the CSM, and also the argument that the CSM can really focus on the strategic work, on adoption, on consultancy. Um, I think that's also something that that drives value for the customer uh to separate these two roles. But obviously, I I do feel what you're saying. I mean, I was in the situation where I was like, okay, I'll just forward this email to support. Um, but yeah, I think our customers are very happy with our support. So they know that they will get help there, that there's always somebody caring for them. So there is no need for them to address it to the CSM. Obviously, they do when they have the feeling they have to wait too long or there's no solution for the ticket. That's I think that's a normal process that the customer comes to the CSM and says, Oh, my ticket doesn't get solved, or they don't have a solution for my problem. Can you look into it? And I think that's totally fine. And that's also some of the situations when CSM and support work together and have a look at the ticket. What can we do? What can't we do? What's the reason for that? And also when the customer wants some kind of customization, that's also something I didn't mention before. But that's something where you have support, like technical support, evaluate what the costs would be for this feature, and then the CSM taking care of the rest, like communication and autoforn preparation.
Charlotte Ward: 18:02
Yeah, yeah, yeah. I I I I like that word rejection. It I think that's what I was reaching for when I said sad. Yeah, it is. It's kind of like you're saying no. Um, I think it's it's great that you've got your customers that well trained. Um, I I definitely um have been environments and have seen environments where customers are, you know, um, to your point, they just want the quick solution. And if they if today happens to be the day where they're they're on their quarterly Zoom with a CSM, they'll ask the questions, you know. Um but I think I think I think to your point, the the best thing to do, first of all, is drive obvious value from support so that after one or two experiences, it begins to become obvious to the customer that that's the place where they get their resolutions faster because they don't have to wait to next week's call or they don't have to wait until CSM is you know going back to her email at the end of the day or whatever, um, and that it's actually like responsive and useful to them to and and and move them forward um on that one problem today. Yeah. Yeah.
Ulrike Pitschke: 19:13
And it's also important for them, I think, to know that we are not like they are not talking to two different, entirely different departments, but we are talking with each other. So uh the CSM knows about the support tickets and that they don't have to have like communication twice.
Charlotte Ward: 19:33
Yeah, yeah, absolutely. I couldn't agree more. Um the uh and that can feel that can feel um disjoint, can't it? If if I think I think that act of like saying, can you please contact support is a is one of those moments where for a customer it can feel like I'm being passed over to a completely different part of the organization. And so to your point, I think the messaging in there somewhere needs to be let's get this over to the support team. I'll keep an eye on it. If you know if you need my help, I'll absolutely be there, kind of thing. It's careful messaging more than anything. And training customers takes time, doesn't it?
Ulrike Pitschke: 20:15
I think so. Yeah. Um, I mean, I haven't tried it myself, but I think it takes time. And it's not like that CSMs don't don't uh jump in or help where they can, but it's really more about focus and about experts. Um the experts for technical stuff are with support, and our CSMs are usually not a technical expert. So uh it's reasonable to send them to support and say, okay, if you want a quick solution for your problem, please go to support because they're the right people. And it's a very structured communication of send us. So it's not another email, it's a structured communication. They get feedback that their ticket was received and stuff like that. So I think that's that's the best they can have in this case, uh, instead of waiting for the CSM, as you said, for walking around in the uh in the company, finding the right person, then having another meeting, then getting back two days later or something. So yeah, that's that's probably the thing that that helps most to really make this successful, to have a very good support uh who solves uh things in a structured and reliable way.
Charlotte Ward: 21:29
And that that frees up time for you as the CSM then ultimately, doesn't it? Because once once customers are taking technical work straight to the C to the customer support team, the CSM can spend m more strategic time with the customer, more value add time with the customer. And and do you and and the customers then must feel the benefit of that change of dynamic. Yeah, I would say so. Yeah, yeah. Um, thank you so much for coming back after six years, Ulrika. It's been lovely to see you again. Maybe it's not another six years until next week. It definitely won't be. It definitely won't be. Um I'm gonna I'm gonna um I'm gonna have a little bit more of a noodle on this relationship, and uh I'm sure we can dive into some specifics around where they meet another time. Um, but thank you so much, and it's been lovely to see you again. And um a bit of a refresh on the topic for us because it's a while since we've talked about CS on the podcast. So thank you so much for bringing it home again. Um, I'll talk to you soon. See you soon. That's it for today. Go to customersupportleaders.com forward slash three one nine for the show notes, and I'll see you next time.
