Charlotte Ward: 0:13
Hello and welcome to episode three hundred and three of the Customer Support Leaders Podcast. I'm Charlotte Ward. Today, welcome Jason Yoon to talk about practically perfect support. I'd like to welcome back to the podcast today, Jason Yoon. Jason, it's so lovely to have you back after quite a break. Welcome.
Jason Yun: 0:41
Thank you so much, Charlotte. I am so excited. I feel like this is a fun, ridiculous topic, and I'm just ready to just dive right in and have some fun with you about this.
Charlotte Ward: 0:50
Oh, I I I um I know that we have a treat, maybe even a spoonful of sugar or two for our listeners today. But before we get there, would you introduce yourself for our new listeners and remind everyone else um where you are now, what you're up to?
Jason Yun: 1:05
I would love to. So hello everyone. My name is Jason Yoon. I am the head of provider success at Prax Health. And at PraxHelp, we help NP start, run, and grow their own practices. And what we've learned is that patients just get better healthcare experiences when their providers are in charge, not big corporations.
Charlotte Ward: 1:21
Oh, I love it. Thank you so much. Thank you for that. Um now you and I had uh catch up a week or two ago, and um I honestly don't remember um which bit of that uh very wonderful and joyous conversation led to the idea for today's podcast.
Jason Yun: 1:45
You know, I think everyone's done an amazing job about trends and what's going on in the market, and everything just felt so serious. And you know, I think that the the joy of true customer success and support is just finding what is the joy of helping others, right? What does it mean to really be an advocate and make change? And of course, when you think about change, who else is uh who else isn't a better example than Mary Poppins?
Charlotte Ward: 2:09
Yes, Mary Poppins. Oh, I do you know I love Mary Poppins, she's practically perfect. There have been times in my life where I felt like Mary Poppins. There's some bit of Mary Poppins that I fit deeply identify with. I think it's the perhaps the British, like the directive nature I have as well, kind of making things a little bit of fun, I hope, but but basically keeping children on the rails. Like there's just there's something in that sweep where I just think, you know what? Yeah, I I I think I'm Mary in that situation. It's probably mostly around my own children rather than at work, to be honest. But um, maybe it's also being a bit terribly British, but there we go. Anyway, somehow we landed on a conversation about Mary Poppins, and I said, you know what, it's a little bit about this, and then there's that song, and then there's that song, and we were we were almost having a little sing along there at one point, right? And I should warn our listeners we're not gonna do that today, not least because of licensing beers and regulations. Um, although I can't promise not to either. Don't don't laugh quite so much at that, Jay. He's there's silent laughter here. That's funny. Oh, that's about that.
Jason Yun: 3:19
It'll be a part two. You know, maybe that'll be like the add-on special.
Charlotte Ward: 3:23
Yeah, the uh the the the the the gated content, right?
Jason Yun: 3:28
Only on your Patreon.
Charlotte Ward: 3:30
But no, I think that's I think anyway, anyway. So we we thought what we'd try and do is take our listeners on a little bit of a journey through support, through the songs and lyrics and uh characters in Mary Poppins. Um I have no idea where this is gonna go, but I know it's gonna be fun. Um we're gonna skip through, skip through the songs um relatively quickly, but I feel like we've got some interesting threads to pull out. Um so for um anyone who is as familiar with the musical as I am, which is very, very, very familiar. Um, I'm happy to say, I'm not sad to say, I'm happy to say, the the first song is The Perfect Nanny. It's when the children are describing to Mr. Banks, their father, um, the kind of nanny they actually would like rather than the kind of nanny he thinks they need. Um and they have this lovely shopping list, and they uh um it's uh you know, uh if you want this position, you'd have a cheery disposition, rosy cheeks, no warts, uh play games, all sorts. Um the next line really hits it for me, though. You must be kind, you must be witty. And I thought, what do you need more in support than a helpful nature and and a good dollop of fun to make the day go quickly, right?
Jason Yun: 4:50
Absolutely. And it's just so funny how it sits against the original job description of what they're looking at what Mr. Banks is looking for, right? Like, you know, I'm hearing the song, I'll be talking about the job market and just looking at job descriptions nowadays for anything support related. It's ridiculous. Like, I'm gonna ignore that AI probably wrote. I'm gonna ignore this. But thinking about the person behind it, like, you know, it's the expectations of we want you with this much time, right? It used to be five years now, it's ten. You want to mask, you need to prove that you've done 24-7 support. You have to prove that you've led AI campaigns, you know, you have to prove that you can do cost per dollar. And it's just one of those things where I'm like, look, I think everyone who's a support leader can do this. Like it is opportunity. We are of course we know how to think this way, but what the kids are asking for is actually what the people are asking for now, right? Like they want a leader who's compassionate, caring, right? And I think those are the feel good things that I think about as a support leader that I want to abide by. And I actually like to remind other leaders in the space and like, look, we still want those qualities. At the end of the day, if you don't have them, then your team won't be led by anybody, right?
Charlotte Ward: 5:58
Yeah, yeah, yeah, absolutely, absolutely. Um and and you know, so many of the qualities that we think about in good leaders are just, you know, generally what make good support people anyway, I think. And just, you know, being good operators, getting things done, you know, uh, never being cross or cruel, some children might say. Um but but yeah, I like I think that uh Yeah, I sometimes think about this letter that Jane and Michael write, and it's it's kind of uh, you know, a a children's love letter to their future nanny, isn't it? It's it's a wish list of the experience they want, essentially. And uh and uh you know, I think that when uh uh when you analyse their needs, they're actually fairly uh core human needs. They want to be seen, they want to be heard and understood. They don't want a nanny who is going to tell them to jump through hoops, they have to do this, they have to do that, they have to meet all these all these um expectations, which is actually what Mr. Banks wants, right? And I think I think some of what you're touching on in the job market, for for instance, is uh is uh the job market has become Mr. Banks. You know, it's very demanding, it's expecting a laundry list of uh skills and qualifications and and everything. And actually what most job seekers want, um particularly in the support space, is the ability to and the space to do good work and to be seen and heard by their employers and and and to meet meet their their peers and their leaders and their customers where they are, which is as human beings.
Jason Yun: 7:45
I feel like we had this lesson during COVID. I felt that we learned how to be compassionate when it came to remote work. I thought we we knew how to communicate in terms of needs, but I feel like everything's regressed. Right? It's all cast oil corona, right? I think as managers, I've known this post for newer managers, right? It's really the generations after us that ideally we did a good enough job to support them and lead them, but they don't know how to give feedback. Right? We talk about progression, uh, when we talk about advocacy for a product or policies, like we've somehow lost our footing in this. I think because we leaned so hard in the course correction of how do you stay so operational? And so really here's a reminder of being like, don't forget that touch because again, like at some point you're gonna run out of people who want to work with you. Right? As a very reminder, and also reminder of you're also dispensable, right? If you can't fit your role as a leader, and you know, be caring and be kind and find ways to you know keep them, you know, and involved and engaged and truly retain them, then you're just gonna lose your spot too, just like the DC.
Charlotte Ward: 8:53
Yeah, I couldn't agree more. Well, let's move on to the second song, which I think is somewhat um unexpectedly one of my favorites. I feel I didn't understand it when I watched Mary Poppins as a child, but in later life, as a woman, I think it is one of the underrated songs in the musical. It's not a headline, it's not sung by Julie Andrews or Mary Poppins. In the original film, the 1960s film, this was sung by um the actress Glynnes Johns, who played Mrs. Banks. Uh so she was the mother of the family, she was an older actress, she wasn't known as a singer, um, and she actually speaks her way effectively through a lot of this song. Um, but uh she conveys it with such feeling, and it's such an important topic of the time, uh, but also an important topic for all time. You know, it's about equality, it's about again, it's like that message of being seen. But in in this song, we're talking about women being seen and being given the uh given equal votes. This this song is Sister Suffragette, and it's my favorite as an adult, I think. Um so we're talking about being soldiers in petticoats and dauntless crusaders for women's votes. Um, but there's a couple of lines in here. I know, you know, at the time women were going to extraordinary lengths for equality. Um uh and they were playing a long game. Some of these women knew that they wouldn't see the benefits of the equality they were campaigning for, um, which is why Glennus Jones sings this lovely line, our daughters' daughters will adore us. Um, and you know, I think there is so much about uh this song that I uh when I just think about being in the workplace and and the evolution of my career as a woman in tech and uh a woman in tech who came into the job market and into my professional life in the in the mid-90s. Um like you know, the the evolution over time is uh has been quite something. What what does this song evoke for you in terms of that landscape or you know, equality by uh by any um measure?
Jason Yun: 11:14
Well, it's funny because when I was briefly thinking about the song, I was like, well, you know, I'm not a woman in this space, right? So what does it mean? I can say advocacy, I can talk about you know having a a c a cause that you're fighting for, and then I just sat back and I realized that's so stupid because it's only been women in my career that have managed to support me to the be in the leadership positions in which I can exceed in. Uh, you know, if I think about even currently my company is mainly all women, the the leaders are all women, including my COO. Uh, you know, the majority of our customers are nurse practitioners, which is a heavily you know woman-dominated field. And so women helping women, like here I am as a man, but I think the whole concept is the fact that I wouldn't exist if I didn't have women in these spaces, including the people who you know who support me within my team. And so I think that's one part is acknowledging that. And then also thinking about the customer support space, you know, there is a general trend. You know, I think we see a lot of female leaders in the support space, at least from my perspective, on like from the early tech years and the last 10 years or so. Um and so it always just takes me to kind of question and ponder where it's like the the impact of women in support, at least within these big B2C, B2B companies, has always been there. And I don't know if I've ever seen it recognized or discussed. I always feel like it's like one of those quiet observations that people just make and see. And so, Charlotte, I'd love to ask you, you know, from your experience, is it are are we seeing the same things or is it different things?
Charlotte Ward: 12:40
Well, I work in a very male-dominated space. I work and have always worked in the deep tech space. Um, so I had lots of experiences from the mid-90s onwards, um that let's say have been mixed. Um, however, um I do you know, I think what this song uh inspires for me, and I it isn't particularly because it's of its time, it's not particularly flattering towards men. So I'm gonna broaden the scope a little bit. Sorry to say, Jason. Um, I don't wholeheartedly agree with some elements of it, particularly, you know, as a uh a woman in the in this space, in uh in the in in the culture, you know, now we're downstream 30 years with the way culture has evolved, and obviously 120 years since you know suffragettes were um a thing. Um but I think to me what this really speaks of is is the need for supporting each other, um, regardless of uh one's identity or any other, you know, um facet of one's one's um presentation to the world or or core identity or or anything, you know, um any any of the uh facets that might be considered to be um diverse in any way, frankly.
Jason Yun: 14:03
But it's so fair. Shoulder to shoulder into the fray, right? Like I was looking at that lyric. Exactly.
Charlotte Ward: 14:13
And I love that cast off the shackles of yesterday, shoulder to shoulder into the fray. And um when I think about everything you said about women supporting you, because of the environment I'm in, I'm actually in almost the mirror image of that. I have needed men to advocate for me, particularly earlier in my career. Um, because I was surrounded by men, men were my peers and my leaders, and have been for the most of my career. I think I've had one female, two female bosses in a long time. Um, and so actually, some of some of my uh best advocates have been men, some of the people that I've worked well alongside have been men, and uh have got the most uh transformative work of my career, both uh in terms of getting the job done, but also you know, changing my um like making step changes in my own kind of um professional development, let's say. And and and so I think that really what this is about is finding the people that will support you that believe in the same things you do, um putting aside differences and working together. And I love Sister Suffragette for that.
Jason Yun: 15:42
This is such a deep read, Charlotte. I'm not you're right. And I think even you reminded us like it's been 150 million uh not 100 million years. It's been 150 years since the movement, but there's still work to be done, right? We can't forget what's the work to still be done, right?
Charlotte Ward: 15:59
Yeah, yeah, yeah. And and the the um the the I forget which is the dark and which is the light, but the yin to that yang or the yang to that yin is the very next song. It's Mr. Banks telling us about the life he leads and how grand it is to be an Englishman in 1910, uh, how satisfied he is with his uh um with his job and coming home to Hearth and home, and you know, how he expects everything to be in order, essentially. Um, and he and and what's actually if you if you watch uh David Tomlinson, Tomlinson's my maiden name, by the way, so I always felt kind of a kinship to that character, even though I didn't quite understand this wealthy white man when I was saying seven, singing about half and home. Um nonetheless, um the the what's interesting is you watch this scene develop in the movie, which I must have seen a thousand times by this point, as you watch this scene develop, is that clearly there are some there's chaos around him in his hearth and home, but he's oblivious. So the maids are doing things like rescuing the clock from falling off the mantelpiece because the cat uh the admiral at the house next door has just like fired his cannon for six o'clock, things like that. And um, the children have gone missing briefly, and the wife is trying to kind of hide the fact that she's a suffra suffragette in some respects and is still trying to be the dutiful wife. There's there's absolute chaos going on around him. Now he notices a bit of it, he gets involved where he feels he adds adds value, he h holds up some high things that clearly the women can't reach. You know, but but it's interesting to sort of I I think to me this is like everything a leader shouldn't be.
Jason Yun: 17:52
Well, I I mean it's it's funny because we know this is start during like the industrial era. There's money, there's you know, there's clearly different castes of people. But this kind of felt like to your point, an oblivious support leader. And I I I have to be honest, I have definitely been in a situation where it's not canons, but it's soft engineers throwing out really buggy code on a Friday night. And I'm just like, sure, go for it. Right, I'm just oblivious about like policies changing and not understanding what's happening on the front lines and understanding that feedback right there. There is an obliviousness. I do feel like support leaders can get to if they're too comfortable. If you're too comfortable, too big, you have so many layers that between your front lines, and I think that is the tale tale, right? And I think I mentioned this to you earlier, like listening to Mary Poppins, it's funny because I I want to be like, oh, I'm totally Mary Poppins, but I think carefully and critically. You know, I do feel like there are points where I listen to Mr. Banks, I'm like, oh, I have learned my lesson because I I totally follow that same ideology.
Charlotte Ward: 18:52
Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. I think I think it's the safe space. And I think, you know, we've all been, or a lot of us, particularly if you've been in leadership long enough. There are times when in any role, whether it's momentarily in a role, a few weeks, a few months, or it's a role that you get stuck in for a while, whatever it is. We all have moments of like coasting, this is a safe space, everything's predictable. And uh, and I think that's what Mr. Banks is is really uh articulating in this song. Um, and it is very much about traditional support, and you use the change word, which I think is really important. He is oblivious to change, he doesn't see the change that is happening in the world around him, and it's necessary. And so he sings about tradition and discipline and rules must be the tools, right? Um, without them, disorder, catastrophe, anarchy, and you have a ghastly mess, uh, which we know is not true. With a little bit of flexibility, with a little bit of cheer, which Mary Poppins brings, um, there is just a much happier place. And in some degree, it takes him a very long time to realise that most of the film is about bringing Mr. Banks around to uh a level of awareness of his family, of the needs of his of the individuals around him, not just his blood family, but his neighbours and his servants and uh everyone because of the time over whom he effectively has some sort of power because it is 1910. Um, yeah, yeah. He finally, he finally achieves a different level of awareness.
Jason Yun: 20:33
It takes a while to get there, and we'll we'll get to the songs for that journey. But you know, I think to your point, if we if you think about even current trends, I actually feel like the support leaders that actually get stuck the most are those who are so rigid. I still think it's folks who feel uncomfortable technology or dealing with that people who are remote, or even currently with economics, people don't have as much access to funds. The conversations have changed so much. So things that we used to do just can't work in this environment anymore.
Charlotte Ward: 20:59
100%. 100%, 100%. Um, I'm gonna move us swiftly on um to the next song because this is one of the headline songs, isn't it? Spoonful of Sugar. Um in it. I know. Who doesn't know the lyric or at least some of the lyrics to this song? I'm quite ashamed to say to say that maybe I'm not that ashamed to say I know the lyrics to most of these songs backwards. But every every in every job that must be done, there is an element of fun. You find the fun and snap the jobs again. Um, this is this is getting shit done, this song.
Jason Yun: 21:34
You know, I I hear your version of that. My version was like, this is the secret socks, uh, secret sauce of how I write appeasement emails or phone calls. Like I'm walking into a really frustrated person. But the reality is you have to come with sincerity. You have to come with a peace on it. You have to do something to de escalate, right? And I always tell folks, you just you're gonna get bad news, you know. It's it's our job to give it, but you have to layer it with plainness, you have to layer. With fairness in there, right?
Charlotte Ward: 22:01
Mm-hmm. Mm-hmm. A spoonful of sugar does make the help the medicine go down. I I uh I couldn't agree more. Um, what's interesting is to your point, and the fact that we read different things into it, both of which I can 100% buy into and do see, that just show that you have to have a little bit of humour, you have to be able, because support is such a bad news job some days, isn't it? Uh the and and the reason for that is demands. Demands are made on you all the time by your organization, by your customers. I need this, can you do that? You should do this. There's that that thing to make that metric to meet, there's this report to run, there's, you know, we need this from you now, now, now, now, now. Um, and unless you can meet I nearly strayed into Kipling. Maybe I won't. Um sorry. Um, I couldn't sound more British today. Um, but unless you can show up at work every day with a sense of humor, it's a pretty depressing place to work in support. That's right.
Jason Yun: 23:11
There's always a lot of nouns. I love to remind people, especially leaders, that you know I'm always happy to respond to anybody. Like it is my job, it is my commitment. But if I'm the one who is getting bad news, if you're asking me to explain why something failed cannot happen, I'm the last cause. I'm the worst person to say this because that means everything in terms of policy and planning, in terms of product design, it means everything that could have been, you know, you know, really paused and focused on preventing this from happening failed. But I think that's the remarkable thing. I think to your point, yeah, that's also but that's also our our talent, that's our craft. It's how do you bring joy? How do you bring humanity? How do you bring hope? Right? Hope, yeah. Yeah, and it sounds so silly, but like, you know, coming from a B2B space right now. Hope to me is me saying, you know what, let me file this as a product suggestion. Hope to me is like, let me like really like focus on this bug and pull all my resources and really just scream at the top of the mountain, like, this is a priority, please fix this as poor person, right? But I think that's like the fun part that we get to have.
Charlotte Ward: 24:13
Yeah, yeah, 100%, 100%. Um, uh now let's talk about Bert having the fun part. He he does what he likes and he likes what I do, is what he sings. I do what I like and I likes what I do in Chim Chimini, the next song. See what I did there. Um, I I I cannot uh get behind um the dreadful accent. Really?
Jason Yun: 24:40
Yeah, I thought it was quite charming. As a non-brid, I'm like, oh, it's so charming. I loved it.
Charlotte Ward: 24:45
Oh man, it's awful. It is it's just the worst accent on on in filmic history, I would say. Um, but the character is just so um, it's just so uh engaging, actually. And um he's the one person who's there for Mary. Mary is there for everyone else, but who doesn't love the fact that Bert loves Mary? All he wants to do is do things for Mary, you know. Um and in Chim Chim, and it in the first uh in the first um Bert song, it's when he's a screaver. A screaver is an artist of the eyeest degree. So this is a pavement artist. Uh it's uh it's an interesting introduction to Bert. Um, and it's our vehicle to the next the next song very quickly. But um he loves his job, and I I think that's one thing that Bert gives us always through Mary Poppins, is that whatever he's doing, and he explicitly says it in this song, is that he likes what he does. Uh he likes he likes the drawing, he likes the uh the the nature of its it, you know, the trans almost like the transient nature of what he's doing. Again, the rain comes down at the end of the jolly holiday sequence, which we'll get into next. But and his drawings are gone. Like, and um and what is that if it's not a ticket that you've solved and you're moving on to the next one very quickly.
Jason Yun: 26:21
Something that I I realize, like re-listening to everything, is that Bert is actually the only character who comes off as a storyteller. Right? Everyone has their own story, but Bert is the one who actually says, This is who you are, and then here's a trick, right? Yeah, you get that in a ritual interaction and really what this kind of reminded me of on top of what you shared is it's our job with the support space to humanize these people. We know our customers, we know our clients, we know the relationships, right? We we can explain what they're experiencing, what's going on, and it's that creation quality that only Bart really offers is such an important musical.
Charlotte Ward: 27:01
Yeah, yeah, yeah. Yeah. Um I mean, I yeah, I couldn't agree more. He does, he he connects us and this family to the people around them, and and you know, I think that's really he's the grounding element, I think, in Mary Poppins.
Jason Yun: 27:21
Uh and then when we go to the very end, you know, when he's actually the one persuading Mr. Banks in terms of what you may want to do different, what your children have better relationships. Yeah, he has the ability to not tell someone that they're wrong. Instead, he has the ability to suggest other alternatives, which again the support we can always give hard no's, but that's not our job. Our job is to educate, our job is to advocate, or rather to facilitate what they can do, right? Yeah, and so again, love Mary Pop is the third. I kind of feel like maybe that's the right philosophy that we have to follow.
Charlotte Ward: 27:56
Yeah, yeah, yeah. Um, and he is he provides through uh his pavement artworks the gateway, literal gateway to the next song, which is Jolly Holiday. Um, ain't it a glorious day, right? As a morning in May. Here we are recording in May. Could this be more apt, Jason?
Jason Yun: 28:18
Love it.
Charlotte Ward: 28:19
Oh man, um, I'm having such fun. Um so so what do we take from Jolly Holiday? Because it is it is an absolute riot of joy and colour and dance and fun. The clue is in the name and in every scene and and verse, like the you know, the the kind of the little dance sequences with Bert and the penguins, and you know, the the the sun is shining, and everything's just like literally picture perfect because we've jumped into Bert's picture.
Jason Yun: 28:53
Do you ever feel like you know, when you talk with your support team, that's the experience you want to have. You want to make sure your team feels like they're on holiday with you, right? It doesn't matter what's on the outside world, it doesn't matter what London looks like in 1910, but when you just start with the team, you just start the day, it feels beautiful, it feels glorious, everyone's just happy.
Charlotte Ward: 29:14
Yeah, yeah. I mean, this is this is do you know I've just suddenly realized, I think what a nicer compliment to pay anyone. It I don't think there is one than to say every day is like a holiday with you. I how nice is that? And if you can make work a little bit like that, I mean we've got to be realistic. Uh it's not gonna be quite so picture perfect. Uh but you know, to to bring that level of joy, maybe you do sort of bring some cakes and tea and some rapberry, raspberry ice, right? Um maybe you can bring little bits of uh jolly holiday into the workplace. Um so if we are having such jolly time, is there a jollier word? I think I I think I need you to say it.
Jason Yun: 30:03
I I tried practicing it, I'm gonna flub it up. I believe it's super califragilist expialidocious.
Charlotte Ward: 30:10
Super califragilistic expialidocious, indeed. Um, so there is uh um I'm gonna try it. Um at one point, Mary says you can say it backwards, but that's a bit too far, don't you think?
Jason Yun: 30:28
Um if you want to do it, go for it.
Charlotte Ward: 30:32
She she she does it, and she does it because it's Julie Andrews perfectly and in tune. Um except that she doesn't do it perfectly. It's like say, you know, you expect backwards to be backwards, like you've written the word backwards and now you're reading it. But what she does is she takes the sound bites, the syllables, the elements of the word, and says them backwards. So she says, uh doce alley expedie exbi uh docha sally expistic fragicali rupus. That's what she says. Sorry, that took me a couple of goes. That's what she says.
Jason Yun: 31:26
You've got it.
Charlotte Ward: 31:27
I got it, right? So it's not perfect, but um for me, yes, you've got these things that power you along in the day, but being able to back out of them is kind of like we we've done some things have gone, you know, maybe a little bit too far here. We just need to step back a bit from this situation, is what I take, actually, from this song. And particularly from that, from that moment where, as I've proven, you do stumble over the going backwards a little bit.
Jason Yun: 31:57
Well, you did a fantastic job when it mattered, but you know, I I'm curious, do you ever I think about now versus before? How often do you find yourself or just a little bit stuck and having to figure out a solution?
Charlotte Ward: 32:11
Um, yeah, uh quite a lot. Who doesn't support?
Jason Yun: 32:16
Same thing here. I feel like things always change. Like I'm never gonna be the pure expert, but I feel like as I'm getting older, as I'm doing different things, it's kind of like being comfortable being like, I'm just not gonna know this. And I'm not gonna pretend that I do, but I I will try different things. Uh and I still stand by this day, Chat GPT and Cloud, they're not as good as a good Google search. I feel like, you know, just diving in, just figuring it out, just offering ourselves a little bit of grace as a reminder to that.
Charlotte Ward: 32:44
Yeah, yeah, yeah. I I couldn't believe I couldn't agree more. Um yeah, yeah. Uh and you know, you have to be familiar enough with how you got there to be able to say it backwards, I think. Um to be able to, you know, to be able to get to that kind of thing that we really need to do at this point. Um, am I gonna persuade you to give it a go?
Jason Yun: 33:05
No, I'm not doing this. You know, the left to right, but the right to left. We're not doing this.
Charlotte Ward: 33:12
Uh I'm gonna try again. Doscious alley expiistic fragicali rupus. There you go, nailed it. That's what she says. Doscious alley expiistic fragicali rupus. You got it. I think you pretty much got it. For a first attempt live on air, not bad. I already feel so happy with that. It's quite atrocious, isn't it? There's another song reference for you. Um do you know what the other thing is? Like there's this little line, and then we'll move on to the next song. Um, when the can when the cat I see, I can't say the actual English, I can say the super califragilistic expialadocious. But when the cat has got your tongue, there's no need to for dismay, just summon up this word, and then you've got a lot to say. Um when you're getting on a customer call, you know where I'm going with this, and you're out, you're stepping out into the unknown, and you need to you need a couple of hooks on which to rely on to give you the confidence to go further, right? We've all been in that situation. Talking to a customer, we don't actually have the answer.
Jason Yun: 34:19
I feel like I apologize so much more in my professional life than I do in my personal life. Because when I go into those customer conversations, where again you don't have all the answers, you don't know where it's gonna go. I feel like I always apologize because I'm so sorry for the intrusion. And I'm so sorry to ask that I'm doing this. I I genuinely apologize so much more than I apologize to my husband, which is ridiculous.
Charlotte Ward: 34:45
So I've got news for you, Jason. My husband says the same thing. So yeah, yeah, I'm on board with that one. Um, yeah. Um let's let's rattle on because that was quite exhausting. So maybe we need a rest. Uh and luckily, the next song is Stay Awake, um, which is very counterintuitive. But this is how this is how Mary gets the children to do things quite often. She tells them to do the opposite, but she uh she frames it in such a way that it's hard to do the opposite. So this song is actually a lullaby. Um, but she's telling them to stay awake, don't go to sleep, don't rest your head. Um uh you're not as sleepy as you seem. I wonder if there isn't a little bit here of just switch it off and on again. The children literally need their rest. And we often end up fight fighting the situation in front of us. Do you know what I mean? And I wonder if this isn't a little bit about like put it down, switch off a little bit, come back to it fresh.
Jason Yun: 35:54
I never thought about that. You know, I it's weird because I think about this as the first lullaby, and then I think about Feed the Birds being another lullaby. Um I think those are the only two moments that we get this gentle reprise from Mary, actually throughout the entire score. This is the these are the only two snapshots that we get where it's not fanfare, it's just just being gentle. I think you're right, I never thought about it. For this version, it is a flip opposite from what she's asking for, and I think it's it's that kindness that we talked about earlier, right? You know, how do we present this to our team members or our colleagues or even our customers, just or ourselves?
Charlotte Ward: 36:32
Yeah, yeah, yeah. Yeah. Mary's just uh uh parable for life, isn't she?
Jason Yun: 36:40
Um let's well it's a 30-second song, but it has so much deeper meaning than I ever thought about until we had this conversation about it.
Charlotte Ward: 36:48
Um I think we can we can rattle through the next one because I think it is just another jolly romp. The I love to laugh, you know, Uncle Albert. This is the laughing takes you to the ceiling, you end up, you know, unable to come down, and they all have to think sad thoughts to come down. Um I you know, I I mean this is the thing about this is there's a moment where they're all describing different forms of laughing, and like how these different people, some people laugh through their noses and some people hiss and some people blast or twitter like birds. Um this is about understanding, isn't it? How others express themselves and and and meeting that with kindness, actually.
Jason Yun: 37:35
And isn't that again goes back to our support leadership concepts, right? Like it's relatability. I mean, everyone loves to laugh, but you can have feelings of fear or loneliness, right? Or happiness. I think you have to miss that way, is there also who doesn't want a happy support leader? Right? Who doesn't want somebody who can be playful and the ability to find humor in something? We have to do this in this space. We do have so many series to begin with. Like if we don't have that, then like I don't think you can survive.
Charlotte Ward: 38:05
Well, in the very next song, we get Mr. Banks making his case again for exactly the opposite thing to to what you just described. They're at the bank now, or at least they're on their way to the bank, um, which must be run with precision. It requires discipline, uh, tradition and rules. So we hear echoes of what he began to tell us when he was talking about hiring a nanny at the start, except now he's on home turf. So he's doubling down on it. He's saying children must be moulded and shaped and taught and uh uh made ready for life's battle, right? So this this this song is a battle cry. And um Mary interjects and tries to bring him round to her way of thinking. She there's a there's a moment where he tries to say super califrangelistic expialidocious and she corrects him, and he really can't. Um and actually she fails, where to your point, Bert later succeeds in making bringing clarity to Mr. Banks's thinking and joining the dots for him, right? But but this is Mr. Banks asserting that authority. Um terribly cheerful.
Jason Yun: 39:21
Do you remember when in your career you had to decide what type of support leader do you want to be? Like the heavy-handed, like disciplinary person versus the ultra like empathetic music. Did you ever figure out when you're like, yep, this is the path I want?
Charlotte Ward: 39:38
Do you know what, Jason? Genuinely, I think I'm I think I flick flack between the two. And I'm not quite Mr. Banks, but I think there are times when you need, as any leader in any function, you need to be able to have the difficult conversations with clarity, with metrics, with with even authority, but certainly with certainty. And and to that end, I think sometimes, just sometimes, you have to be Mr. Banks. You know, we are sometimes dealing with institutions or institutional ideas, you know, legislation, um, you know, due process, uh, all of that, like, or HR. You know, I mean, there are there are times when you have to operate with certainty, clarity, even authority, but but certainly, you know, keeping uh a process or a business or a team on the rails. And there are times when you shouldn't, and and hopefully that's most of the time. And so the rest of the time you do get to be Uncle Albert laughing on the ceiling, or or but or Bert, you know, helping people understand what they really ought to understand. Um I I think that the the answer for me is a bit of both.
Jason Yun: 40:57
I I have to ask, I feel like this is the part of the musical where I feel like it's an audience number. You kind of have to choose who do you really agree with, right? And you know, for my experience, I've done both extremes. And I've learned a lesson of I hate both extremes. Because they just the rigidity doesn't exist. And I do agree. Like I love early age startups, and you have to be loose. Like, yes, I could be extremely strict, but there's no point. We don't need to yet. There's other things that are priority, but as a company scales, as it gets bigger, you're absolutely right. But you have to have the foundations down. There are rules, there's regulations, there's HR, right? So I agree. It's almost like it's the middle path you have to seek if you want to be successful.
Charlotte Ward: 41:38
Spoonful of sugar, right? I think is the middle path. The spoonful of shop sugar that gets the job done actually is the middle path between Uncle Albert Light laughing on the ceiling and Mr. Banks at the bank, actually.
Jason Yun: 41:49
I was funny, I was thinking uh I was gonna say it's gonna be feed the birds, because you have to humble yourself. Because you have to remember at the end of the day, like, what are you trying to do? Who are you actually or what do you want to leave your impact with?
Charlotte Ward: 42:30
Yeah yeah, yeah yeah. Um so this this song, of course, with Mr. Banks talking about the British Bank and uh, you know, everything we just said about the kind of leader he wants to be and the kind of uh leaders he expects his children to grow up to be. He's of course taking them to the bank. But on the way to the bank, there's um um a little moment of pause, and this little moment of pause is something that Mr. Banks actually must walk past every day. But the children notice it, and it's the uh the old birdwoman who comes to the steps of St. Paul's um and asks people to kind of feed the birds for tuppence a bag. I I wonder about that. You know, they see her, um, they want to give her the tuppence for the bag of crumbs, which I think to be honest is is is overpriced. Um I'm just being honest. However, what really uh But what I I think really is the point of this is that Mr. Banks doesn't notice this and he must walk past this poor old woman every day. And I don't know how I feel well, I th I think it's everything we know about Mr. Banks, right? Is that he's pretty oblivious.
Jason Yun: 44:19
But also the kids don't know what to do either. Right? I think very much because he doesn't know. And then Mary Poppins really has to explain what to think about, right? It's hard, you know. If we thought if you think about customer support leaders just being known for you know strategically empathetic, right? Maybe that's like the blur because like what does it mean now?
Charlotte Ward: 44:44
Right?
Jason Yun: 44:44
Like it falls on us to understand our customers, under it falls on us to understand impact and preventing tides of change and kind of going through it, but I still stand by the core skill of if you cannot learn how to connect, then you cannot understand how to help. Right. I I have clearly spent hundreds and thousands to hundreds of thousands of appeasements at my time at Instacart and Lift. I have given people lots of money and credit during my time. But it's it's not that, right? It's not giving someone some monetary math. It's it's intentionally understanding them, acknowledging what's happening. And then I think it's always beyond just the initial appeasements, also like what are we doing as a strategical piece to make things better long term? I I know this is Tom Blue to think about this song, but isn't that what it is, right? Support leaders out of the always figure out what is the solution that we have to do and successfully navigate every other cross-functional partner to agree with.
Charlotte Ward: 45:41
Yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah. Absolutely, absolutely. Um, talking about partners, we we get to meet all the partners of a certain institution in the next. I'm I'm nothing if not uh, you know, experienced at making very tenuous connections between elements of uh musical to the current current conversation, Jason. You can't argue with that. Uh the part the partners at the Doors, Tomes, Mousley, Grubs, Fidelity, Fiduciary, Bank. Um this is where they're going. This is where they are on their way. This is the journey that Mr. Banks does every day. And he walks past that old lady. Um, he wants them to do something different though, doesn't he? So he enters into this full-on sell to Michael to give up his tuppence and to invest it. And the way they do that actually is with a surprising amount of vision. Um, they talk about, they they create these images for Michael of like railways and dams and uh, you know, great ships and canals and things, and they go full into like uh uh like um what's the word I'm searching for, Jason? Probably like you know, they they try and engage this young child's imagination. I think Michael is supposed to be about six at this point. Um but the selling mode, like the it the aspirational element of the selling that they go into, here's what you can actually be a part of, is uh both, I think, genuinely unexpected for that set of you know, bowler-hatted Englishmen at a certain time. You don't expect them to be excited by that level of innovation and industry when actually really what it means to them is money. But you don't even expect them to be able to describe it with such enthusiasm and such verve, but but also um how disconnected it is from the place they actually are at that moment and how hard they're trying to sell this to Michael.
Jason Yun: 47:55
And I think that's but I I feel like that is the stereotypical sale. You know, if I'm thinking about myself in like hyper-gross situations, right? Every company will always have a dream. There's always a school, and then if you get really lucky and some do, trajectory just goes insane, right? In this case, talk about going to Africa, right? Where about in Africa, but you know, thinking about like being this beer, being this evening, it's about like penetration, just becoming viral, right? Um and I think you actually hit the Danielle in this thing, which is it's passion, right? As much as we talk about empathy and carrying and connecting, passion and product vision, trying to go to that next raise, that next goal is actually equally important for us to figure out as leaders. And recognize, right?
Charlotte Ward: 48:38
Yeah, yeah. Do you know as a support leader experiencing many, many, many, many vendor calls over the years, like his, I'm just gonna throw this out there. Um, like I've been at the uh I've been at the uh receiving end, let's say, of that kind of passion, you know, salespeople who get very excited about the capabilities of their knowledge platform or their help desk or their support quality platform or whatever it is they're you know trying to sell to me. Um and they they always begin with uh the the vision, they try and sell me railways through Africa, you know, and I'm like, I I know my needs very well, you know. I actually need these three things. What I actually want is tuppence for the bag of birds outside, for the for the bag of bird food outside, but they never come back to that. So they if they fail with the grand vision, then they get into the weeds. So it's like, and you often see this with like you go from like these kind of big AI selling pictures, like our AI can do everything for you and your customers, down to uh, like, well, actually, you can get into the nuts and bolts. I'm like, I care about neither end. And we see this with uh Mr. Banks and his his uh superiors talking about the uh nature of money and how it travels through a bank and how it, you know, the uh um all of the all of the uh different opportunities in the in the in the in the depths in the bowels of finance almost, you know, you get that kind of uh um interest that accrues uh semi-annually and uh bankruptcies and debtor sales and all sorts of things. And I feel like this is a little bit like having a tool described to me by people who don't know what I'm actually going to use it for and what my actual needs are. And I so I think that there's like a bit of like lack of understanding about the customer here.
Jason Yun: 50:41
Well, I mean, I think you're right. I think it's a cautionary to have for all leaders, we're we're getting granted like visions or grandeur in terms of what can be done or available to us. I still have to say, I've not heard one person say this is the specific AI solution I need for CRS. I have not heard someone say this is an affordable platform to do 100% QA audit, and you never have to worry about that ever again. I haven't heard any of these people coming to me saying this is the actual proven way, because we don't we're not we don't have it yet. We're not there. I don't want to spend money on this. You don't want to spend money on this, you don't have time for this, right?
Charlotte Ward: 51:15
I probably don't have money to spend on this either. Oh my gosh.
Jason Yun: 51:18
Yeah, I probably don't have a budget for it either. You're absolutely right, right?
Charlotte Ward: 51:21
Yeah, yeah, yeah. Absolutely. Um so having having no budget, um, you know, sometimes we have to I don't know where this is going, by the way, this connection, except to say we're we're back to someone who has very little money and couldn't be as happy, you know, couldn't be uh happier, really. Um we're back to Bert and uh a reprise of Chim Chiminy. Um but this time the full song, this is the the core tune. We get to go and meet um Bert in his element. Like this is the song that takes us up to the rooftops um before we hear Step in Time. Um he talks about how happy he is as a cheat as a as a chimney sweep and uh and how you know how lucky he is. And even though he's on the most bottom rung, um there's no happier bloke than when he's in the ashes and cert, right? Um and and actually, how despite the kind of frankly lowly nature of that role, particularly at that time, people generally are pleased to see him. Do you know why that is? He solves problems. As a chimney sweep, he he basically takes someone who has a problem with their primary use case and solves it for them. Because if a fire is not going to make your home and hearth warm and pleasant to live in if the smoke can't escape, and so in sweeping the chimney, he's he's enabling the way for uh you know efficient and uh fruitful use of the product, i.e. the fire. I that was tenuous, but like we got there, I think.
Jason Yun: 53:10
Well, I I mean as an electric fireplace owner, I have no idea how chimneys work, but I think this role is actually dangerous too, isn't it? Like you would get hurt really and I think children were brought on and they also died.
Charlotte Ward: 53:22
Like I'm pretty sure it's not a good I actually have a chimney with a working fire, so I and I have had for most of my life, so I know a little bit more maybe. Uh I have live experience. I have life I I have actually I actually occasionally employ a chimney sweep. They they are the ultimate support worker, they come in, they they get the job done, they leave the place clean. They leave the place surprisingly clean, Jason. I feel like it's cleaner than when I brought them in. I know, I know, but you know, like you feel like they're gonna get soot everywhere, but they're so like they're so meticulous. Like they really care about the service they're delivering. Um, and people are nothing but pleased to see them.
Jason Yun: 54:05
I want to ask you a question that just connects to that statement and kind of connects a step in time. So I feel like both songs kind of transitioned over from this is who we are, and now we're having a great time working together. You know, if we if we think about chimney sleepers, uh you know, and the support work and support agents and leaders and so forth, like is a support space a space that you still recommend people to come on in, find a job, do with stay within this industry. Do you do you see yourself advocating it to people in this current market versus you know the experience that we've had in the past?
Charlotte Ward: 54:45
Yes, but very differently from how I would have advocated for it three years ago, two years ago, six months ago, you know. Um, and that's for all the same reasons as we began this chat with that the the job market has changed, the requirements are changing. They'll change again six months from now. I'm hiring different people now than I was two years ago for sure. Um and that, you know, like that's kind of the the nature of the landscape right now. Um and uh yeah, I mean it's it's it's it the thing is it's kind of quite hard to describe, I find, because it's moving so fast. But I know this is my calling, and I can't live in a world where I can't advocate for it. Like I it would be weird to me to say this is my job, I love it, but there are there are no opportunities here. I there's a dissonance there for me.
Jason Yun: 55:46
Yeah, I I'm so happy to share that because I find myself in a similar way where it's like it's my calling, it's my path, because at the end of the day, I still want to help people. Like that I want to end my day being like, cool, I have fixed this, I have solved this, like I know I'm gonna make a really positive impact like for this nurse practitioner, right? Who's gonna have a major impact in their patients? Like, I can leave my day being like, I have done my job, right? Yeah, but I still feel like it's a really hard space to get into. I feel like if anyone is new, I'd be like, I hope you're really good at people management and dealing with difficult personalities and you know different cross-functional partners across the way and just making sure you know all this stuff, but I still feel like if it's if you find the right calling and the right fit, it's still magical. You can have an amazing time if you have that in place. Otherwise, it's not gonna feel good, it's gonna be really hard.
Charlotte Ward: 56:38
Yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah. I I couldn't agree more. Um, now as you said before, um, there is a very swift transition between Chim Chiminy and the absolutely riotous uh kick stepping step in time. What a joyful, energetic song. I can I can see a few things here I want to pull on, but I must tell you something that I know about Dick Van Dyke and Step in Time first. Do you remember? Do you recall how energetic and relentless that dance sequence was? Yes. And it was, I mean, it wasn't one take, it was a day of takes, I'm sure, but there are long, but there are long sequences where it's one camera shot. The thing I know about Dick Van Dyke, God love him, despite the awful accent.
Jason Yun: 57:33
Despite that accent.
Charlotte Ward: 57:35
Awful act. I mean, that man could dance. Um, and he could carry, I mean, he carried that number for a number of reasons, but he has my ever, everlasting admiration for one fact that I know about that day of filming, which is that he turned up for work that day with flu.
Jason Yun: 57:56
He was sick during that entire sequence. That's insane.
Charlotte Ward: 57:59
He had full-on influenza and delivered that sequence for the movie on the day intended, with all of that energy, with all of that vigour, and and uh to be the center of the show for what was actually quite a long involved, very physical number, flu Jason. Flew, not not a tiny bit of a sore throat, but flu isn't that insane.
Jason Yun: 58:31
I think knowing that now and think about how like hard and challenging that entire thing with us, like that's amazing.
Charlotte Ward: 58:38
Yeah, yeah. And it's so um the thing that really um when I think about that, I mean uh like that dedication, but also the nature of the song and the number itself. That is a that is a song where one person calls the orders and everybody jumps. It is highly reactive as a song. Bert says, kick your knees up and everybody does. Bert says, round the chimney, and everybody goes. Flat like a birdie, everybody goes. Um and for me, that's a day in support. You you like you pulled over here, then you pulled over there, and you've got to run around the chimney, you've got to come back here. Like that is a day on the front line, isn't it?
Jason Yun: 59:23
I try to be calm. I used to be known literally, like there'd be a bug, and I like maybe working on the first floor, and I'd run up the second floor looking for my injuries and be like, we have a life issue, we gotta solve it. Yeah, I try to be left manic nowadays, but yeah, yeah, I feel like that was very old school me, but now I'm like, I'm working from home. Where am I gonna run? Down up and down my stairs.
Charlotte Ward: 59:42
Yeah, maybe not maybe maybe not. Yeah, maybe not, maybe not physically. I feel like that's me around Slack on some days. Exactly right, right?
Jason Yun: 59:52
It is that rigor, it is the fact that it's come in, come out. There are things that we have to sequence and you just move and you're right, it's a dance.
Charlotte Ward: 59:58
Yeah, it's a down, it's a dance. The number of times I use the number of times I use that little juggling emoji to convey what my day is, right, at this point in Slack. Um, and then he says, Ah, they're at it again, and off they go again. Like they have this little interlude, and then he says, Ah, they're at it, at it again, and they basically do the whole sequence again.
Jason Yun: 1:00:18
Like that's and they're smiling and energetic and happy, which again is that secret sauce of how do you do something that's so routine or just right like a machine-like, but the reality is we love it. We just do it, right?
Charlotte Ward: 1:00:30
Just actually yeah, yeah, yeah. And then we have a moment of uh reflection immediately after. Mr. Banks has gone through some personal trauma. You know, he's had his little buttonhole uh carnation torn to shreds, he's had the top of his bowler hat punched through. Um, he's disgraced at the bank and has walked home um feeling very sorry for himself. Um and he's reflecting on his life and and the ambitions he had for himself, and uh and actually how his illusions have been shattered over the course of the previous days and weeks with Mary Poppins, and he blames her momentarily, right? He said, I had this world that was calm, well-ordered, exemplary, and then in came this woman, that Poppins woman, it's all her fault. Um, and uh he feels tricked and he feels uh undermined. Um and this is the moment you're talking about where Burke brings an alternative viewpoint.
Jason Yun: 1:01:40
It's hard, you know. I it again as watching, listening, and rethinking and reflect and reflecting, it's uh if I think about my experiences during COVID, I feel like I had to be rigid. I had to be Mr. Banks because how else was I gonna survive all these things happening? And I feel like as well, politically a little wild, you know, but it's like I have to offer myself grace and humility and be okay with Lindsay, or just just change, right? And you know, I think so carefully about you know my colleagues and friends in support space where they were they had this rigid lifestyle, they had a path, and then they it's gone, it's lost, and now trying to figure out and I think I really know our friends, our colleagues who are listening to this, just it's okay to have chaos that just happened, it's okay to feel lost, it's okay to feel scared or frustrated or or unsure, but just again, just take a spoonful of sugar, right?
Charlotte Ward: 1:02:44
It's all just take you that little bit of grace, yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah. What I what I love about Bert's um intervention, let's say it is an intervention on poor Mr. Banks at this point. He Mr. Banks is utterly um um bereft of understanding, really. He really can't comprehend. He's looking around him for someone to blame. Um what I love here is the the mechanic Burt introduces Burt uses to introduce his uh his alternative viewpoint into this conversation. The thing he does is what Mary does, but he does it in quite a different way. He says the opposite. So he says the opposite as if it's true. So he says things like that woman she tricked you into taking the children on an outing. Outrageous. It's a man with all the important things that you've got to do. That's shameful. Um, and then he reflects Mr. Banks' position back to himself, and like, yeah, they've got to like I agree with you, they've got to get on with it. Like, you're too important for all this, right? He's he's reflecting, he's holding up a mirror, actually. Um, and uh the thing he does is he then like puts a little future lens on that mirror after getting Mr. Banks' attention with the opposites. Um, and he just begins to say that that little refrain about, you know, it it really does, it won't matter. It's okay, like eventually they'll be gone. Okay, you've missed all of these opportunities, but you know, and that little bit of spoonful of sugar, yeah, whatever. Like that's what bought Bert's saying, right? Um yeah. Uh do you think that there are um times when we we need Bert's in our lives as leaders, someone else on our team, maybe, you know, uh whether it's a peer or a or a boss or you know, that sort of long-standing confidant somewhere in the business to say, you know what, like this is how you came across.
Jason Yun: 1:04:55
Yeah, you know, I I always think about like the difference between a support manager versus a support leader. I think a leader requires strategy, right? You know, of course at the strategic side, you think about metrics and we use those as a North Star and what to do and impact. Um, but you can only get that rigor if you have you know that Metro Bank approach in terms of thinking logistically what needs to happen. Right. We still need a very specific being like, well, how do you want the experience to be?
Charlotte Ward: 1:05:24
Yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah. Absolutely. Um what do we want the experience to be? Do we want the experience to be the kind of moment that our last song delivers?
Jason Yun: 1:05:35
I think that's a great question. Let's go into it.
Charlotte Ward: 1:05:40
So where are we? We're at the park, probably. Um, we've tied our sister suffragette ribbon to a kite, which is one of my favorite moments where they actually pull their resources together. Um, and uh they don't they don't even buy a new kite, they they fish out an old kite, they paper it up. Mrs. Banks gets her sister suffragette ribbon and ties it on, and off they go to the park. So they fly a kite up to the highest height and send it soaring.
Jason Yun: 1:06:11
I love the fact that it's Michael's kite originally from the beginning of the scene that I think he tried to create that did not work well, right? Yeah. And think of it. It's the reminder of you don't always need something new. Sometimes you're just good enough by yourself. You just need to figure out a way you got to and you're right. It's about that unification. And I don't know, I just feel like the missing conversation now is what are we doing to make everyone engaged and excited? Right? What is the future of support? If we're gonna say that we're gonna use Chat GPT and agentic, you know, AI, cool. Please do it. Please do my boring work that I have to click through and sometimes we make mistakes, right? Yeah. Like, what is the future that we have to offer? I mean, and it's always gonna be the answer of product insight. It's about relationship building, right? It's about trust. And you know, that's so fine. It is about whimsy, it's about letting yourself go, but it's also just saying just be in the moment. I think there's so much fear uncertainty in terms of trends and where is our industry going to go that we also forget our current core, which is delivering for our customers right now, delivering for our team members.
Charlotte Ward: 1:07:24
Yeah, yeah, yeah. I agree. I I I think it is about aspiration as well. And I think just to mix my uh literary references a bit, I cannot remember who who said this, but there was a quote somewhere that was something like feet on the ground and head in the stars or something, you know. It's like, and I and I think like literally, physically, that is the experience of a kite, isn't it? You're stood on the ground, you're grounded, you know exactly where you are. But you have this deep connection to your point about being a leader, to the future. You have hope, you have aspiration, you have a a place where the air is clear, and you know, and it it's like there's no reason not to follow that string.
Jason Yun: 1:08:08
Yeah, there is no reason why you also just can't just be taken off of your feet or just letting that kite just get away just a little bit, right?
Charlotte Ward: 1:08:14
Yeah, yeah, yeah. If the wind is strong, you just feel particularly when you're little and you're Michael, it it can feel like it's gonna blow you away at any point.
Jason Yun: 1:08:22
It can feel nannies or applicants can blown away.
Charlotte Ward: 1:08:25
Oh my goodness. Yes. Yeah, yeah. Yeah. We're we're at the end of the musical. We've we've reached the final number. The curtain is is uh draping slowly and carefully across the stage. Um, or or the credits are rolling if we're in the cinema or at home watching this on, let's face it, Netflix or something. Um what a what a what a romp through what is one of my favorite films um with one of my favorite guests, Jason. Have you enjoyed this? Have we we could draw some conclusions? So are we happy to draw a curtain?
Jason Yun: 1:09:02
I'm happy we got here across this journey. I know it's not about AI or future trends or like really hard lessons, but again, just thank you for this fun reflection and just getting to experience this together. This is a lot of fun.
Charlotte Ward: 1:09:14
This was a lot of fun. Thank you so much. You're gonna come back, or is it gonna be a part two? The second movie is so hard. It's quite hard. I really like Emily Blunt and I really like Lynn Manuel Miranda, but it was hard, wasn't it? Uh maybe a different story.
Jason Yun: 1:09:31
Oh yeah, why not? I I yeah, yeah.
Charlotte Ward: 1:09:34
The thing is with Mary, she's practically perfect. That's the thing. Hard to repeat. Yeah.
Jason Yun: 1:09:41
Sorry, Charlotte. I appreciate you.
Charlotte Ward: 1:09:43
Yeah, thank you so much, Jason. Uh, come back soon. Thank you again. That's it for today. Go to
