245: Fireside with Valentina Thoerner

Charlotte Ward: 0:13

Hello and welcome to episode two hundred and forty-five of the Customer Support Leaders Podcast. I'm Charlotte Ward. Today, welcome Valentina Turner for a fireside chat. I would like to welcome back to the podcast today, Valentina Turner. Val, lovely to have you back. Last time we spoke, it was your birthday week, I think, in February. And yeah, and I just saw a very, very um amazing video of you on LinkedIn. This week, where you finally got to celebrate said birthday. Do you want to uh share with those people who might not have seen that video what you were doing?

Valentina Thoerner: 0:57

So, because I'm the Empress of Remote, of course, I need suitable attire. And because my girlfriend is a seamstress and works at the opera, she gave me for my birthday a full-blown Empress dress, like with the crinoline underneath, with like several skirts, one over the other. So even though Omicron, which was the reason I had to move it to May, isn't around that much anymore, still everybody had to keep the distance with that dress because of the because of the skirt, like you couldn't get like over one 1.5 meters close to me. And then there was this trampoline on the on the ground where we did the party. And somebody said, Oh, I bet you can't really go with this dress onto the trampoline. And this is this is becoming like a topic of my life because I'm wearing a tiara because somebody told me, I bet you would never wear that at a conference.

Charlotte Ward: 1:47

Here we are.

Valentina Thoerner: 1:48

So of course I I got onto the trampoline and I have a really cute slow motion video of that that I uploaded to LinkedIn. And to be honest, like jumping on a trampoline with heels is a feat in itself, but it was more difficult to squeeze through the hole in the trampoline because they in the net. Yeah, exactly.

Charlotte Ward: 2:11

Oh my goodness, that's quite an achievement in itself. Absolutely.

Valentina Thoerner: 2:15

Yeah, we had a blast. I can very much recommend if you are born, if you were born in February and when you want to do an outdoor party, I can absolutely recommend May.

Charlotte Ward: 2:23

Yeah, yeah. Recommend differently.

Valentina Thoerner: 2:26

Like the Queen of England, like she has a different birthday.

Charlotte Ward: 2:31

Exactly. Exactly. Seems seems fair to me. I I think everyone would yeah, yeah, yeah. I I'm all for that. Um, well, I'm I'm glad you had such a good time. It looked an absolute blast and uh well done on getting through the little hole in the net.

Valentina Thoerner: 2:45

Like we had so much fun.

Charlotte Ward: 2:46

Proverbial camel and the eye of a needle or something there.

Valentina Thoerner: 2:50

Oh, yeah.

Charlotte Ward: 2:53

Um, that's awesome. But welcome back to talk about something a bit more um serious, um, insofar as it's work instead of being on a trampoline. Uh, but thank you so much for coming back. And uh we're here to talk about teams today, aren't we?

Valentina Thoerner: 3:09

Yes, actually, so I'm it's work, but I also use this with everybody else around me. So it's not only work. So um, about I think five years ago, I read a book which is called The Four Tendencies by Gretchen Rubin, um, which is a very, very short personality test that basically just tells you what motivates you. And it's a test that's quick and dirty enough that you can do it with all your teammates in a team meeting, takes like 10 minutes, and you get four results, not like 16 different personality types, and then you never know where where to start. Because it's it's just about motivation, what gets you out of bed in the morning or what gets your team members out of bed in the morning. And especially if you're in a remote setting, this understanding what motivates your people to come to work is actually super helpful, not only in terms of giving them extra motivation, but rather how you frame the information that you give them or how you frame the things you ask of them so that they can respond to it without it becoming an internal struggle. So the baseline is you can either be externally motivated, somebody told you that you have to do something, or internal, internally, you decided that you're going to, I don't know, meditate every morning and new New Year's resolution. If that was your new year's resolution and you're still meditating, you're very internally motivated. Well done.

Charlotte Ward: 4:43

Frankly, I think New Year's resolutions, if you're still doing them on January 17th, well done.

Valentina Thoerner: 4:48

Yeah, absolutely, absolutely. And if you still remember yours today, well done.

Charlotte Ward: 4:55

Yeah, very true, very true. Yeah.

Valentina Thoerner: 4:59

I always use a theme for the year. I've I've long ago stopped any specific um specific, what's the name? Resolutions. Mostly because by the time March comes around, my resolutions aren't applicable anymore. Because what I thought was the most important thing in January, suddenly in March wasn't.

Charlotte Ward: 5:19

That's changed significantly. Yeah, yeah, yeah. It's also a really bad time to do resolutions, actually, when you're coming out of the Christmas haze, and you're and work is likely to be super busy, and there's just a bunch, whole bunch of other new stuff about to hit you anyway for the new year. Why make it harder? Yep. Anyway.

Valentina Thoerner: 5:39

And that brings us to the I'm a questioner. So basically, you have you can be externally motivated, which means in in in the speak of this uh test, you're an obliger. You basically oblige to what is brought to you out um outside, outer expectations. This is what gets you moving. These people need accountability, like they tell their friends, I'm going to do this, and then because they know their friends are watching, they are doing it. I'm a questioner, which means I'm only only I'm mostly internally motivated. That means if I see that something is worth doing, I'm going to do it. If I don't see the point, I have a very hard time doing it. And having questioners on the team, even myself being a questioner, I say because they question everything because they want to understand what's behind it. So if you have another questionnaire on your team, like make sure that you give them all the information that explains the why of whatever you want them to do. Also, don't take their questions personally. Personally, right? As a questioner, I've done my research. I've done all the research. And now another questioner comes along and says, Well, but why? And I'm like, I've just spent three weeks researching this. How dare you questioning me? So in that case, it helps to actually like transmit what you found out to these people. Then you have upholders, they are both internally and externally motivated. So it doesn't really matter which strategy um you use, though upholders usually don't understand why other people can't do what they said they would be doing.

Charlotte Ward: 7:13

Ah, interesting.

Valentina Thoerner: 7:15

Because they don't like, why would you you said you would be doing this by Friday? Why, why would you like what? Like complete lack of understanding why that could be a problem for someone else. And then you have rebels, they are they would love to do things, but they rebel against themselves, so no external or internal motivation. In their case, you have to think very much outside the box and um tell them the options they have so that they can pick something that doesn't sound like they should be doing it. That's kind of the the nutshell. Most people in customer support, interestingly enough, are obligers in my experience. So you tell them what needs to be done and they get it done, which is amazing to like get things.

Charlotte Ward: 7:57

Deliver, yeah.

Valentina Thoerner: 7:59

But for for new ideas and to actually think through your own assumptions, questionnaires are actually more interesting. Because they are not going to let you off the hook. Not because they don't like you, because they need to understand in order to act. And like what I really like about this framework, there's the if you search for quiz for tendencies online, you're going to find a test that you can do yourself and with your with your team, is that it really like gets it to the what do you need to get to do things? What motivates you? And it's like I don't care, care. Well, I do care, but it's not really relevant what your your purpose in life is 25 years from now, if you're on a support team. Like we need to figure out how we're going to get to our goal this week. So the many of the personality goals are kind of for day-to-day work, they are great to learn more things about you, but they are not super practical.

Charlotte Ward: 8:58

Yes, yeah.

Valentina Thoerner: 8:59

While what motivates you actually can help me to adjust, it's really digestible, isn't it?

Charlotte Ward: 9:04

It's like just and it and it it's very in the moment because vote motivation carries moment to moment, I think, rather than I might be motivated to do to towards a big goal. But even if I'm the character type that has a big goal that I want to achieve 10 years from now, that is made up of small motivations all the time, small steps towards, and you have to have the motive, you have to understand how you're going to achieve the small steps or how anyone on your team is going to achieve that quarter's OKR or something. You know, you're waiting for even those sort of medium-term goals, kind of yeah, yeah.

Valentina Thoerner: 9:42

And then for some people, you will have to break down why these OKRs are important.

Charlotte Ward: 9:47

Yeah.

Valentina Thoerner: 9:47

Which sometimes means that you yourself have to actually be really clear clear why the OKRs are important.

Charlotte Ward: 9:53

Very true, very true.

Valentina Thoerner: 9:55

So it helps you to like question your own underlying ideas as well. And others just want them to say, hey, do X amount of tickets per week, and you're good. And it's very interesting how I think some people just have an easier time to work with one of type of person than with another type of person.

Charlotte Ward: 10:15

Sure, yeah.

Valentina Thoerner: 10:16

And once you understand, maybe you're just clashing because you're type of, yeah, like you motivate in different ways. So you want to offer them accountability while they don't care for accountability, then it might make the working together much much more harmonious.

Charlotte Ward: 10:31

I and I think as you said, kind of um understanding the motivation, understands how somebody's understands why somebody's helps you understand why somebody's projecting in a certain way as well. As you said, it's not only about the relationships, but that that interested me what you said about maybe don't take a question as questions personally, you know. Um, because it would be really easy to if you if you feel an uh overt level of challenge, you know, you could get your heckles up when actually you just think this is this is what is motivating this person, right? Is understanding um to move.

Valentina Thoerner: 11:07

And I think especially for a new leader, being questioned is something very difficult to handle.

Charlotte Ward: 11:12

Very true.

Valentina Thoerner: 11:14

So if you understand they're not questioning you in your position as the team lead, they just need the information so that they can then put the information into their own uh mental framework.

Charlotte Ward: 11:27

Yeah. Did you um just in terms of your personal experience with this, with these um these four types, um did you were you surprised by your own type, first of all?

Valentina Thoerner: 11:39

Uh actually I thought I was more of an upholder. But usually what I understood uh what I understood over the years is that I I may look like an upholder, but I'm just very good in translating what somebody expects from me into my own expectations.

Charlotte Ward: 11:59

Ah, okay, that makes sense. That makes sense.

Valentina Thoerner: 12:02

And also now I'm at a moment in my career where I can question others without being punished for it.

Charlotte Ward: 12:09

That makes a big difference. Yeah.

Valentina Thoerner: 12:11

And like at the beginning of your career, also because of stereotypes, like if you question a lot as a woman, you are more seen as insecure and you don't know what you what you do, what you want.

Charlotte Ward: 12:21

And now or challenging, or challenging, right? Overtly challenging and therefore difficult in inverted quotes. Yeah.

Valentina Thoerner: 12:28

Exactly. So I think there I'm becoming wiser, or people are more afraid of me, or whatever, whatever. So I tend to question a lot, but then when I have the answers, like for me, it's then easy to basically reframe it so that it's in my in my own interest to get things done that others also want to get done.

Charlotte Ward: 12:47

That makes sense. That makes sense. And so have you had uh have you had everyone on your team sort of complete the quiz?

Valentina Thoerner: 12:53

I usually I usually do this on the on the first one and one or second one-on-one that we have. So there are like two tests that I'll have to do. What this one is one that I love to do in one-on-ones, and then the love language test. That one I love to do it as a team and then translate the love languages into a work environment. Because, like, if your love language is words of affirmation, for me as a team lead, it's good to know that you like really like to be like praised in public because it's the way you you recognize that you're being appreciated. While physical touch is not something that's appropriate in an office environment and not something that's possible in a remote environment. So the question is like how, and this is very interesting to do with teams because they kind of get the sentiment behind, and then each team translates these things in different ways.

Charlotte Ward: 13:46

And I have to know how you translate physical touch into a remote professional environment. What do you do instead?

Valentina Thoerner: 13:52

It's it's usually something to do with either sensory input, so sending somebody, for example, uh food vouchers, yeah. No, no, specific specific songs that could be great for the oh, interesting.

Charlotte Ward: 14:05

Ah, okay. So that's an awesome idea.

Valentina Thoerner: 14:08

And it sometimes overlaps with the um quality time. So that you like really uh we mix between quality time and acts of service, but you do to do something that basically engages the sensory sensory senses, is that a thing? Uh of the senses of the of the person.

Charlotte Ward: 14:26

Um yeah, yeah. That sort of virtual hug of a bit of peace. Yeah, exactly. Yeah, yeah, yeah. That's nice.

Valentina Thoerner: 14:34

And then you have like one thing that you couldn't do in your one-in-ones, then you know how to motivate the people, and then you do the the other one, the love languages it work appropriate in your team meeting. And it actually can create a very positive spiral of because now everybody knows how the others respond to encouragement. Because if you're somebody who loves to like uh words of affirmation, but the other person is somebody who really thrives on acts on service, and you only tell them how amazing they are, they don't feel appreciated because for them it would be much more meaningful that you pick up something for them and make their lives easier. So, like just by knowing what other people need in order to thrive, and knowing that on a team level and not just on a one-on-one level, can kind of level up the how how people interact in the team.

Charlotte Ward: 15:25

Yeah, yeah. That makes complete sense. That makes complete sense. Um and when you when you carry out the the the quiz in one in that first or second one to one, um and you uh establish which of the four tendencies someone tends to operate inside. Do you then is that something that uh your the rest of the team would have visibility to? Like do you use that to establish sort of greater harmony across the team in addition to between you and that individual?

Valentina Thoerner: 16:01

It depends because so what I usually I do the quiz. No, first I I we read or we look at the definitions of each of these four times, and interesting enough enough, most people already know just by reading the description, like they see, and then we just do the quiz to basically confirm or whether you were between two types, which one is more predominant. And then I explain what my type is and how this has um played out in my working with other people, and how this is actually visible in my user guide. Like, so I have like a readme page usually at work where you can read stuff like what are my co-working hours, how you can get hold of me, and that you should never call me on my phone, these kinds of things. And then um we always encourage people to create their own README or their own user guide, and then they can disclose whatever they want to disclose into in that user guide. And many people then actually put this in what whether they it's they need accountability or not, or whether they need explanations, or whether it doesn't really matter what what comes with it.

Charlotte Ward: 17:06

Yeah, yeah. That's interesting. That's interesting. I I have um, and this is just extending away from the four tendencies a little bit, but I have mixed feelings about the kind of user guys and the manual of me's and things like that, you know. The I um I can I can see huge benefits, you know, like knowing never to call you on your phone. Super, super useful bit of information. If I was to work at Klaus, I would never call Val, right?

Valentina Thoerner: 17:34

Because I'd think I'd be fired. Like that's the only reason why.

Charlotte Ward: 17:38

I mean, whatever the reasons, you know, like you said, your core working hours, or like I really hate, please don't ever give me public praise. Like a few of these things are like really good to know. Um, and yet on the other hand, in this, I think in some ways, um much as you said at the start of this, like when you think about other personality typings, for instance, MBTI, where we break down into 16, and then then you have, you know, whatever 16 to the power of 16 is like possible combinations and like figuring out how you should relate to everyone based on all these subtleties within their personality. I think is also um one of the one of the conflicts I have, one of the things I haven't quite reconciled yet is if everybody in a media, like if you're an organization of five people, that's fine. But in a medium-sized organization, even it becomes quite a challenge if everyone has their own manual and everyone has to go and kind of consult how to speak to Val, how to contact Val, when's Valora, like um, and and and you know, if that is completely at conflict with my own needs, like how you find how you find the overlap. I mean, we're humans, I guess we have to find compromises, but but also like just the I also worry about the overhead in having to kind of understand how every single individual in my organization wants to be kind of worked with, communicated with, and and related to. So I I think for me that's a the little thing I haven't quite reconciled about user guides or manuals of of me, those kind of things where for me they are conversation starters, nothing more.

Valentina Thoerner: 19:21

Like if I don't read every well, I do because I'm curious, but more like I wouldn't recommend to read everybody's user guide, especially if you are more than I don't know, 20 people in the organization.

Charlotte Ward: 19:32

Yeah.

Valentina Thoerner: 19:32

Um but before I go into a one-in-one with someone I've never had a one in one before, I like to read through the user to their readme or user guide or whatever, and see what I can pick up in there that I find interesting. Because there's usually a little bit of personality in there that's not uh visible from only their Slack profile.

Charlotte Ward: 19:55

Yes, that's very true.

Valentina Thoerner: 19:57

And even if something, for example, on my My user guide says my core working hours are 12 p.m. to three p.m. Like that's the hours where I will always be available for for meetings. Mostly because it slots in with all the time zones that we have, and because um at the weeks that I have the kids, like I have a hard stop at four. So I know that I can't stay longer than than than four p.m. Um but it's only three hours. So it's an interesting to see, like, because sometimes new hires in the first one and one with me, and they are like, Why like are you a halftime or something? And then I explain them that I actually very often also do split days or I do some hours before the kids wake up, or if I don't have the kids, I only start at 12, but I then then work late. That I like to have the flexibility, but I also want to give people the opportunity that they know in these hours they can always book themselves into my calendar and the the world doesn't end. And that way we have already started a conversation about what are the expected work hours. So by putting some things in there, it's not like plus these things are also not written in stone.

Charlotte Ward: 21:07

That's very true. That is very true.

Valentina Thoerner: 21:09

So as like I apart from there's one rule that's written in stone, it's don't just write high and slack and then disappear. Like just tell me what you want. But apart everything else, it will always then shift with the person that you're talking to. Like there are people where I would I will never run over when it comes to the time because I know there's who, and then there are other people where we have like a 30-minute call booked, and then we end up um, I don't know, dissecting every single thing in our product onboarding and end up talking for two hours, and that's fine, which doesn't really align with the fact that I'm supposed to be very German on time and tagged to my calendar. So, but I like it, and that's also why the there is from GitLab Darren's readme is like, I don't know, five pages, and then if you click through every link, you have like, I don't know, the Bible. Which I think it's a lot and can be a little bit overwhelming. But if you manage to put like the most important things about you into like on half a page or one page, so that whoever who's going for the first time into a meeting with you, probably already super nervous because they have no idea who you are, that they then get like kind of the most important bits and something personal where they can then like tag onto and start a conversation because otherwise we are only going to talk about the weather and Omicron, and I'm really tired of these two conversations.

Charlotte Ward: 22:36

Yeah, yeah, yeah. That's very true. That's very true. Um I I I think that um I think you make some interesting points there. Definitely it's not set in stone. And and yeah, the idea that I mean, even if you're a con even if you're a an organization of 150 or 1500 or more, yeah, maybe these user guides, you only you only read you're not going to talk with everyone.

Valentina Thoerner: 23:00

You read who you're going to talk to.

Charlotte Ward: 23:02

And the people you relate to most. Uh yeah, yeah. And uh yeah. And interestingly, perhaps the new people more than the people you've been working with for ages. Like there are people who, you know, if I've worked with them for 10 years, I really don't need to know if they've suddenly suddenly created a user guide. Like it's not really gonna change our relationship. Yeah, yeah.

Valentina Thoerner: 23:22

For new people, it can be a really interesting resource, for example, to figure out whom am I going to approach for this. There are like three salespeople, and I really want a demo. Whom of these looks like I can connect with easiest. Because of something that we haven't called. Oh, he also does rock climbing. Perfect. I'm going to choose this person, not because he's a better, better or worse salesperson, but because at least I know that it won't be awkward five minutes at the beginning because we already have a top.

Charlotte Ward: 23:48

Yes, yeah, yeah. I really like that idea actually. Um yeah, brilliant.

Valentina Thoerner: 23:53

You've also got Oh, and it's it's it's because I think it's very much inspired by the whole remote thing. Because if we weren't remote, we probably wouldn't have user guides because you would just run into people in the office. Yes, that's a good old water cooler. Yeah, I'm always looking for ways. How can we uh how can we create conversations to happen? Like how can we create the serendipity that people can actually have reasons to reach out to each other, even if it's because of a silly quote that was on some user guide. If that if one new connection is created because of that, it has already served this purpose.

Charlotte Ward: 24:29

Yeah, yeah, absolutely. Um I I also um I came across uh uh several years ago, uh, the concept of a now page, which I think is is kind of interesting. Yes, I think so. Yeah, I think so. Like just the idea of what am I doing right now, what are my priorities right now, what am I working on right now? What's my what's my how what's what's my state of being, you know, how am I feeling? Uh yeah, I really like that idea as well because I think that and I think that sits quite nicely as a section in or as or alongside a manual.

Valentina Thoerner: 25:04

Either that or you need to update regularly update your your manual.

Charlotte Ward: 25:08

Yeah.

Valentina Thoerner: 25:09

So I I have a my manual at at work, I may I suppose I update, I look at it once a quarter or something. But that's also because uh as head of remote, I speak with every new hire. So I know that they are going to look at my page, so I want it to be reasonably adequate.

Charlotte Ward: 25:25

Yeah, yeah.

Valentina Thoerner: 25:26

Accurate. My I also have a personal user guide for like friends and family or people that come into my social circle.

Charlotte Ward: 25:34

Do you do you put it?

Valentina Thoerner: 25:35

But that one I update every month almost.

Charlotte Ward: 25:38

Oh, interesting. Do you put your tendency on there? Which which of the four tendencies you are? Okay, okay. Please share that with me.

Valentina Thoerner: 25:45

Oh, it's very this one is very, very though. Maybe maybe we are not level where I can sell where I can.

Charlotte Ward: 25:50

I don't know. Well, don't don't feel it either.

Valentina Thoerner: 25:53

There is a on my website, there is a 100 101 things you didn't know about me page, though. That I also update once a year or something where you can. Okay. So the one five years ago said I'm married. The one now says I'm not married.

Charlotte Ward: 26:10

Fair enough. Yeah, yeah. Uh no, I uh that that's um that's great. I and actually like the um the the um dormant engineer in me is kind of thinking about how I can automate uh a user guide, you know, if I can because there's stuff in Jira that I'm working on, right?

Valentina Thoerner: 26:30

Yeah, yeah, yeah.

Charlotte Ward: 26:30

I'm wondering like I have projects running in Jira. I wonder, I'm already thinking, can I create like a confluence page that is Yeah, so that does just feeds out of your active tickets?

Valentina Thoerner: 26:40

Just yes. This is your active epics.

Charlotte Ward: 26:45

Yeah. So it pulls it pulls some basic, like it pulls stuff from my calendar. It gets my my active epics and a and a little bit of a like a manual at the top.

Valentina Thoerner: 26:55

You can probably sell that app.

Charlotte Ward: 26:58

I feel like it must already exist, right? Or that, yeah. Yeah, sadly. I think most things have already been invented. Uh if they haven't, listeners, uh, that's my copyright. That one's mine.

Valentina Thoerner: 27:12

Make sure you mention and send uh send the commission or whatever.

Charlotte Ward: 27:16

Royal royalty is gratefully receiving it, yeah.

Valentina Thoerner: 27:19

Exactly. 50-50. Actually, like I I have my my uh we use Notion and I have a Kanban board with everything that I'm working on, and then it moves over there. So that also gives somebody like an idea about which because it's kind of the I have my very granular to-do list, but like that wouldn't help anyone. Yeah, but then the bigger projects, those I have them in Notion so that everybody can can follow along. And I know some people actually look at those, even though it has nothing to do with them, and then sometimes I get like pings from people, hey, I saw you worked on XYZ.

Charlotte Ward: 27:52

Right, I think that's I think that's really interesting because I'm I'm thinking, like, what am I doing right now? And so, for instance, like for instance, we just implemented CSAT. You may or may not be like we just use class CSAT, right? We just implemented it. It would be quite interesting, I think, for most of my organization to spot, oh, support or like developing CSAT, and like they're getting that's a conversation piece as well, and like those big like like you say, those kind of epic level, yeah. Um uh that sort of epic granularity, that big project granularity, it's probably interesting, yeah, in terms of what people are working on. Yeah.

Valentina Thoerner: 28:27

And even if you have like a lot of open Slack channels and you you always say, Oh, people can like partake into the the conversation, but there are so many conversations going on that if there is a page where you can just see like very high level what's being worked on and what is worked on by a person. Because the thing is, if you look at what is being worked on on a department level, you still don't know whom to talk to.

Charlotte Ward: 28:48

Very true. Because I do have that on our confluence page right now. We just we just use it.

Valentina Thoerner: 28:53

Companies have that, yeah.

Charlotte Ward: 28:55

But but we just have like we just use the Jira plugin into Confluence that says here's here's our Canva and here's what we're doing right now. But yeah, but at a personal level, that's quite interesting to do. Yeah, yeah.

Valentina Thoerner: 29:04

The thing is, I want people to talk to each other, yeah. Because in the end, it's the conversations that we have that create company culture and that create connection.

Charlotte Ward: 29:16

Very true.

Valentina Thoerner: 29:17

So, whatever excuse we can find to have people talk to each other, be it on uh via chat or on a Zoom call, but like have people exchange information one on one. Preferably also some memes from time to time.

Charlotte Ward: 29:31

I well, I think the the last thing you just said could be a meme in its own right, is the conversations that we have that create our company culture. I feel like that is a super endpoint for this conversation because I couldn't agree more. I think that's gonna be the headline quote. There you go. We got it. Got that in the back. Uh uh, yeah. Well, it was quite a meandering conversation, but didn't we cover a lot cover a lot? And uh always, always. Thank you so much. I'm gonna go and do the test. What what do you think I am?

Valentina Thoerner: 30:02

Huh? Uh probably I would put you into upholder.

Charlotte Ward: 30:05

Oh, interesting, interesting. I think I know what I think I know what I would be. I think I would be a questioner. I think I think I'd be quite close to you. I think I would be a questioner who somehow presents as an upholder a lot of the time.

Valentina Thoerner: 30:19

Uh yeah, and that's and that we are many people also think I'm an upholder. So in that case, we're similar. We weasel our way through the world as upholders and then we question everything.

Charlotte Ward: 30:31

Very disconcerting, very disconcerting, I can imagine. I'm gonna go and do the test. I'll let you know.

Valentina Thoerner: 30:36

There you go.

Charlotte Ward: 30:38

Thank you so much for joining me, Val. Talk to you again soon. Bye. That's it for today. Go to customersupportleaders.com forward slash two four five for the show notes, and I'll see you next time.