238: Fireside with Sam Semuhin

Charlotte Ward: 0:12

Hello and welcome to episode 238 of the Customer Support Leaders Podcast. I'm Charlotte Ward. Today, please welcome Sam Samuhin for a fireside chat. I would like to welcome back to the podcast today. Um, pretty quickly, actually, since we first met a couple of weeks ago. Sam Samouhin. Sam, lovely to have you back. Welcome. Thank you, Charlotte.

Sam Semuhin: 0:45

It's great to be back.

Charlotte Ward: 0:48

Last time we spoke, the reason I have you back so quickly is last time we spoke, you said, Oh, by the way, I've got this idea and this idea and this idea, things I really want to talk about. And today I was quite keen to get you back to talk about this idea of empowering our teams. So what specifically did you have in mind here? What was your what was the burning thing in your brain when you said, I must come and talk to you about empowering teams?

Sam Semuhin: 1:12

Yeah, I think as I see more and more companies, you know, trying to make hybrids or like remote work, um, I think it's really important as you as your team grows to make sure that um new joiners, you know, have all the keys enhanced to succeed. Um and that obviously starts with onboarding, but it doesn't stop there. It just, you know, it's it's a it's a long, long path that just is never ending. And um, I think that you know, sometimes companies tend to just stop at at onboarding and uh later on just expect teammates to just remain support agents without necessarily talking about growth, internal growth. Um and um which is a shame because if you hire someone, it means that they're a good fit from the companies, whether it's from a values perspective, but also um from a mission and uh and skills perspective. And it's important to just help them grow and make sure that they remain.

Charlotte Ward: 2:16

Yeah, you're absolutely right. I I can't I've I've lost count of how many times I've been asked, how do you how do you onboard teammates? I mean, particularly remotely, right? But but in any any team, it's all about the onboarding, and and it is important, but we we do, I think, run a risk of over-indexing to onboarding and then onboarding being done, as you said, and then that's it. Well, there you are, set you free, or a support agent or a support engineer or whatever now, and that's it, job done. Yeah, yeah.

Sam Semuhin: 2:45

Yeah, it's a bit of a like a congratulations, you've made it now. Here you go.

Charlotte Ward: 2:49

Yeah, yeah, you've got the certificate and uh and you can run. Um, so I do think that like having that, having a programmatic approach to onboarding is important. And because I think we definitely all know, but we all also forget what it is like to come into an organization, however straightforward or complex the environment is, um how much you need to pick up in those first days or weeks to get going and be successful. So I think it's really important because otherwise there's a you just run the risk of assuming knowledge, and that can go on for a really long time. That assumed knowledge and the effects of it have a really long tail, I think. So programmatic onboarding, I think is really important. But but that piece about what you do next, yeah.

Sam Semuhin: 3:40

Yeah, I think like to jump back on what you were saying, I think it even starts before onboarding from the moment you like start interviewing people and you make them an offer, it really is about like, you know, are they a junior profile? Do they have a bit more are they a bit more experience? How long will the onboarding need to be? How much effort will it take? And um, and after that, you sort of like really need to adapt based on their needs as well. I think it's I'm a big believer in like equality, obviously, and making sure that what works for me or what works for them, like works basically for for everybody. Um, and that that means like making sure that they have the right amount of uh one-on-ones, whether it's weekly, bi-weekly, um, you know, and just really being being available and get all the support their needs. Um so if that means spending a little bit more time, for example, reviewing tickets with them or like scheduling more training, it's it's just it's so important to make sure that they are comfortable in day-to-day job. I think like the first three months of like starting in a new company really will define the next year or so on of the employees of the teammates.

Charlotte Ward: 4:58

Yeah, yeah, you're absolutely right. I think that's an interesting perspective, actually, about thinking about it um right far as far back as writing the job description and thinking about the kind of profile that you want to hire into. Um when in my experience, leading technical teams, in early stages you tend to over-index towards more senior, more experienced people. You have you have you need all the skills, right? You need you need the uh the experience and the skills. And um that transitions over time, in my experience. And and as a team grows, as as a product matures, as you know, the not just the headcount of a team grows, but the the experience of those first technically like experienced hires come in, um as they embed into the product, into the contextual ecosystem. There gets a there comes a point, I think, where you have to kind of make a conscious decision to stop seeking those unicorns, frankly. And absolutely and almost say, right now I think we're in a good place to do more with our onboarding, to seek less experienced people, to bring growth opportunities to the kind of people that we're hiring in. And I think yeah, it definitely starts with that pre-hiring kind of decision of let's bring people in who can grow into this role now. Because yeah, that has an overhead, right? Empowering those people, as you said, has a uh, you know, it does have an overhead, bring people in of that kind of profile into a more experienced team.

Sam Semuhin: 6:38

Exactly, exactly. And then, you know, after six months or so, depending on the seniority, um, it's really important, in my opinion, to really start having those conversations about like internal growth, just to understand, you know, what skills do they need to have, you know, how can you help them? And whether it means moving to the senior support role or a technical one, you know, there's I I see so many job descriptions at the moment for like technical support engineers, um, which is great. It's something that is way underlooked, in my opinion, uh, and yet is is key to you know, reduce churn, for example, or improve customer satisfaction and improve the product at the end of the day. So it's uh it's really about like understanding where does your team, the teammates see themselves in the company as they grow. Um and um it's interesting. Like I it happened, I don't know if it happened to you, but it happened to me once where somebody just was just perfectly happy to remain in support where they were and didn't have any any interest for now to just move anywhere or think about about growth. Just like it's I I like what I do and and it's absolutely fine. And it it was a bit of a shock first, uh because you sort of like you know, you're being taught from a very young age that you know, career, you need to have a career path, you need to just like go for it. And and sometimes we just forget how to react when we get those this feedback, right? Yeah, yeah.

Charlotte Ward: 8:18

I think there's I think there's two things there. You're you're absolutely right, and I have encountered that people who are just happy doing the delivering what they deliver every day for whatever reason, like they get joy out of it, or you know, the the idea maybe it maybe there's a kind of fear of the unknown, and this is a comfort zone, and and it can be anything between the two, right? Can it can be this kind of comfortable place, or it can be just sheer joy in delivering those experiences every time. And and both are fine, like both are absolutely fine. But um, uh, you know, kudos to the support person who gets sheer joy every day, every minute of day from just delivering uh I I mean, where would support teams be without them, frankly? But yeah, but yeah, it it it is it is sort of um as a leader, it is a kind of odd dynamic to say, right, how do you want to grow? What do you want to do next? And for somebody to say, I want to do more of this. Um I I absolutely hear you on that one. Um, I will say that I really passionately believe that you can grow in support though, as well. And absolutely, you know, I think that I I absolutely understand that there are organizations out there where, like Matt Dale leads one, for instance, uh Illuminate, and he's talked about this on the podcast a few times, where he calls his team a farm team for the rest of the organization, and he intentionally creates career paths into other parts of the organization from support. So he's great. So he expects a high turnover within the team, but those people are primarily moving out to the wider organization, which is which is a you know is a different sort of growth. I I look at things from the other perspective, which is that I would rather retain my people um inside support. But but you know, um I think it I think both both are right. Um I I um I just my opening statement in any new role is I what I would love you to stay here. Um and and I would love to develop you here and create a career in support for you here because I have had a career in support and I know how fulfilling it can be. You know, um, but on the other hand, I fully like um support and appreciate there's a route into engineering, there's a route into success, there's a route into quality or leadership or whatever. Exactly. They're all open to you too, yeah, yeah. But and and I think that's it. I think it I think the narrative is for me, it's all fair game in terms of growth. It doesn't just have to be out of support.

Sam Semuhin: 10:54

Yeah, exactly. And like I think support is just it's such a great school, right? To to learn in terms of empathy, in terms of troubleshooting, in terms of writing skills, you know, communication skills. There is there are so, so many things to that you learn and that you can expand on afterwards that will help you to move to into a growth department or a success department or an engineer or product, right? Like we had we had the case in UpFlo where our customer success manager moved to a product manager, right? Position, which is fantastic because she understands, she has such a clear and deep understanding of what you know what are the needs that our um that our customers have in regards to the product that she just, you know, she really like it's yeah, she really goes for it, which is fantastic. And she's such a great, she remains a really good support for the team as well, which is just absolutely fantastic. But um, you know, it's uh yeah, go ahead.

Charlotte Ward: 12:02

Oh, I was just gonna say, I think that's really interesting, actually. Something like what you touched on there about support is such a broad skill set, um, and all of the places the I recall a conversation with Mike Redboard as well, where people were moving from support at Hubsport into finance, even because it made sense for them. And I just find it fascinating that um it is such a good school, as you say, that it it it opens up, it it develops a broad skill set, as you say. It's just all of those things, and and the paths aren't always obvious, absolutely.

Sam Semuhin: 12:37

Exactly. And I I was asking recently because we just we hired a couple of months ago our first support agent. And so I was asked by our director of customer success, you know, what are what's what career path do you see for this person? It's like it doesn't really depend on me. It's not my career path, it's the one of so we'll see it will it will depend on each and every individual the way like I have a basic understanding, right? Type the support, and then you move to a more like senior support role where from the moment new joiners are here, you're gonna train them on the project and on the different processes and so on. But then afterwards, you know, it will depend on what are what are the interests of each and every team member, right? Everybody's everybody's very different, but uh it's um I think every organization needs to have needs to have a budget for learning, right? The learning project, whether it's through courses or books, you know, or like podcasts which are which are free, anything like that. It's just really help people listen to different, like, you know, learn a little bit about different things and say, oh, this is this is interesting. I really like you know what I read in in this department in this book or what I learned in this course, and therefore I want to pursue in that direction. It's it's so important because you spend so much time and resources hiring talents that you want to make sure that those talents remain within the company, right? And it's it's great stories afterwards, you know, when you have new hires, you can say, oh, this person was you know working in in our department six months ago and now this is what they do. But uh I agree with you on what you were saying earlier, which is that like there is definitely a career in support that can be made. And the good thing about it is that it changes from one company to another, you know, the the how broad a support department is. Some companies will say that like quality and knowledge will remain within the support department, and because they will want to have a success quality and a support quality, for example. Um, so there is definitely a learn a lot to be done here. And I mean, I'm gonna say it again, put it talk to your teammates, right? It's so important. Instead of only talking about their metrics and you know, and how how big their CSAT is and their how low is their first response time, you know, talk to them. Like what do they like about their job? What would they where do they see themselves? What do they want to do in the company? How do they how do they where do they want to bring the company to? It's um it's great.

Charlotte Ward: 15:30

I think you're right. I think it's about uh not just saying, here's a course that I think will develop your very technical skill or your very kind of skill that's focused in on exactly what we need inside support at this moment in time to deliver this met like this metric or to you know tie into some like to fill some gap in the team, but um but to continually talk broader and bigger um with all of your team and in it's about is it's about as much as giving resources as providing encouragement and uh but broadening the horizons a little in terms of how you talk about things. So instead of concentrating down on the metrics and the delivery, how does that join up to the wider business? How does that join up to what our customers are trying to do with the product? How does it join up to our revenue? You know, and you know, I think just breaking out, blurring the edges in terms of the first step is just talking about it, isn't it?

Sam Semuhin: 16:31

Exactly. Yeah, be be open to it. And you have to be ready as well to accept some some constructive feedback, you know. It's you may not always be available as a manager to, you know, for your teammates when they need you, because you know, things happen, right? Like you just you may be a bit like delayed on on a on a on a project that you're working on, or you may just have like have a full day of meetings and it may take you a little bit longer than expected to get back to your teammates. But really, yeah, be a it's sort of like it's sort of like being a teacher or like being a parent, you know. It's about like really not holding not holding them by the hand, but really being a sort of like a mentor and saying, okay, I'm here for you now, and uh I I want I want to help you grow, you know. Yeah, it's uh whatever whatever grow means for you, I'm here, I'm here to help you and and to support you. But um yeah, onboarding is definitely a big part of that. You know, the three-month or six-month or yearly feedback that you'll get is also a great moment to approach that and then bring it to high, you know, to to sea level, you know, just say, okay, this is, you know, we're a team of five people out of them, you know, three of them have been here for X amount of time, this is what they want to do. I think they can do it. They have the right skill set. Do we have space in these departments? You know, is it possible for them to move? And like it's a great, it's a great way as well to collaborate, you know, cross-department, whether it's by organizing shadowing or training or like giving them small projects, right? If somebody is interested in copywriting, for example, you know, maybe they can write the small, like, you know, some small social media posts, for example, you know, little little things like this where they can already start getting their hands dirty, right? Uh so yeah, it's uh there's a lot to do. It's uh and it's such a great thing about being managers, isn't it?

Charlotte Ward: 18:40

It is, it really is. I liked your analogy a minute ago about it being like a like a parent, you know. Um, I do see it a bit like that. There was a um like a long time ago, there was a period drama in the UK, and this mother was talking about her philosophy of motherhood. She was watching her eldest child leave home, you know, and uh she said it's it's our lot in life as mothers, isn't it? You kind of you you you bring them into this world. Yeah you raise them, you you take them out along the branch, and then you watch them fly, you know. Exactly. And I kind of feel a bit like I felt a bit of that when you were talking about helping them grow and then watching how they develop potentially elsewhere for sure.

Sam Semuhin: 19:25

Yeah, exactly. It's great. And it's it's yeah, it's just it's great. I saw I I stayed in touch with some of my teammates in my previous company, and one of them was just promoted to a customer success position, which is so great. And I'm just I'm really, really happy for her. So it's you still have that, you know, like yeah, parent relationship in a way, this like very proud moment of because you know that this person is really, you know, has worked so hard to get there, and it's uh it's a great achievement, really. You can't help but feel proud about it.

Charlotte Ward: 19:56

Yeah, yeah. And it all started with when you made that decision. you even hired them.

Sam Semuhin: 20:01

Exactly. Exactly. And it's also about like you we spoke earlier about, you know, hiring what kind of like job description, what kind of position you want. And it's true that you you always tend to want people with experience. But I've had the example, you know, at Uplo very recently when we hired our first customer support agent who has a very junior profile, but who is just smashing it. Like she has such a good understanding of the product. She's killing her metrics. She asks really in-depth questions. She has great feedback. She's open to feedback as well. And she's already working on some on a really big project. And it's so it's so great you know to see how how much people can get done if you if they get the support they need. Right. Yeah yeah absolutely.

Charlotte Ward: 20:59

Thank you so much for joining me today Sam. What an interesting conversation. It went off on in some unexpected routes but I I think um I really I hadn't really realized that that full arc from writing the job description to someone leaving the team how how early in the story that began. So um that that's a that's a wonderful kind of image for me to end this conversation on. But thank you for joining me and and I know I know full well you have at least two other ideas. So we'll come back soon and talk about those.

Sam Semuhin: 21:31

I'll be back exactly thank you for having me Charlotte it was great.

Charlotte Ward: 21:35

Thank you so much Sam talk to you soon that's it for today go to customersupportleaders.com forward slash two three eight for the show notes and I'll see you next time