235: Fireside with Jason Yun

Charlotte Ward: 0:12

Hello and welcome to episode 235 of the Customer Support Leaders Podcast. I'm Charlotte Ward. Today, welcome Jason Yun for a fireside chat. I'd like to welcome to the podcast for the very first time, Jason Yun. Jason, it's lovely to have you. This is the second time we talked because we met last night for the first time and we had such a lovely conversation. So I know what we're going to talk about in a minute, and I'm very excited because it kind of follows on from a conversation I had a couple of weeks back with Ethan Wolfish, right? Before we talk about the topic, would you like to introduce yourself?

Jason Yun: 0:58

Of course. And Charlotte, thank you so much for inviting me here. So excited to chat. Uh, loved our conversation yesterday. So I'm just enthusiastic here. Uh, but yes, uh, my name is Jason Yoon. You know, I spent the last 10 years doing support, and to be honest, was never expected to happen. Uh, you know, I think with my background, grew up, I'm a biochemist, did research, worked in the healthcare field, and I realized it just wasn't my match. And so uh fortunately I managed to get into support by accident, you know, really took that interest and wanting to help people. And then it kind of shifted because it didn't go to you know, a clear, I need to help people with their health, but more people have questions and challenges. And how can I actually be a part of fixing that? And then it became a part of how can I advocate for that? But then maybe I don't want to be the person doing this anymore. I want people who are who's training and managing, supporting the people doing this. And then that skill just keeps growing and growing and growing to the part where it became a part of where it's like, hey, I want to build a support engine. I want to build this customer experience and safeguard and do the right things and really become an advocate, not just for my community of users, but also my support teams. Um, and then kind of got to the point where was doing it, loving it. And then I realized there's a lot of challenges that we face where we're not getting solutions on the technology side of things. And so that really inspired me and my co-founder the last year and a half to actually create products for support teams for these frontline teams to really help them what they want to do and do it well.

Charlotte Ward: 2:23

Nice, nice. Um, I love this story because when when you said, hey, I I I I could come chat to you. I really, I really want to come and talk and see what this podcast thing is all about. Um, I had a quick scoot around your background. And as you say, all of the healthcare stuff just like instantly went ding ding ding, because I just talked to Ethan. Um but what you brought to me as a topic for tonight's conversation was really I we were very much when I talked to Ethan, it was all like emergency care, solving the problem, like getting getting the the fixes out the door, getting getting people healthy again from a from a point of like uh a kind of emergency, I guess, in in terms of medical care, but but also like uh from a support point of view, it's that like high priority, high stress, solve this problem, get it out the door. Kind of that was that was that conversation. Tell me about this conversation we're about to have.

Jason Yun: 3:18

And I do want to remind folks, please listen to that conversation. I thought there were some fantastic tips that Ethan, you kind of divulged it together. Um but yeah, you know, I think when I hear about those acute situations, like something is urgent, something's happening, you know, I think oftentimes we're saying, you know, what's the problem, finding it quickly, diagnosing it, solving it, and then moving on. But another side of medicine I want to talk about, and that comes from my background, is well, what if things are chronic? Meaning that, hey, these are issues that are happening to somebody, but it's not a one-time fix. Maybe there's not a cure, maybe something you have to treat or manage. And realistically, you know, when we talk about those situations, it's no longer a, hey, here's a problem, let's fix it. You know, not like the whole surgical approach of, you know, we have an issue, let's cut it out. Um, it becomes more in a conversation of what type of support within the community? What are we doing to really make sure that we're setting up these individuals for success so that we can make sure that they're managing things well? And then the most important part is like giving the education and support consistently and working with other factors of the community to make sure that they're being led for success as we're continually working with them many times through their lifetime.

Charlotte Ward: 4:24

That that is really super interesting. And and you know, I really love this idea. Like you touched on a few things there, and I know we're gonna dive into those uh over the next maybe 20 minutes or so. But but let's um uh you touched on a couple of of words that I just think go so hand in hand with support anyway. Community is the obvious one, but care, education, uh, and and like that, uh that health and lifetime kind of perspective on this is really interesting because we in some ways it begins to stray into customer success, but this is a customer support podcast. So let's begin there and let's see where the edges blur. Yeah, so so what does what does community care, community support look like then?

Jason Yun: 5:10

Sure, you know, I think so. I actually work at a place called Children's Hospital, Los Angeles. Um fantastic, fantastic institution. And I actually work for an outpatient clinic under pediatric endocrinology. And so those who are not familiar with all those words, we talk about endocrinology, we're thinking about hormones, you know, we're talking about things with the body. So things like diabetes, type one, type two, maybe things that kind of impact their growth and development, things like that. And, you know, it was really exciting for me being there, you know, both as a clinical researcher, as a medical assistant, you know, kind of going through all those different facets. And when we're working with our patients, working with our kids, it wasn't just their physician that they're working with. They're also working with a team of social workers, nutritionists, uh, they're also working with nurse educators. And the idea is that their job as a collective team is figuring out how can we make sure for these challenges that our patients and families are experiencing, and making sure that we're pulling resources from what we also have, but also within the great community, making sure that you know there's there's a multitude of information available and they're working together because they realize that when someone comes in with a challenge, you know, they have a new diagnosis, it's not so cut and dry. We just can't be like, here's a shot and here you go. There's so much more effort in educating and also explaining what's happening, also troubleshooting with them. And I think by doing that, it allows us to actually build this relationship of trust. And the reason why I think it's oh, sorry, go ahead, please.

Charlotte Ward: 6:31

Oh, sorry, I was just gonna say, I think um it's really interesting what you said because it implies that it's a it's bi-directional, doesn't it? Like you your information gathering, you're gathering context and background while providing information and education. I think that's really interesting.

Jason Yun: 6:48

Absolutely. And you know, as much as I think on the support side, we you we love to see our customers as tickets and tickets as numbers, but there is this beauty where we have to remember there is a customer store in terms of what made them come to us. Why are they using us? What is happening? And more importantly, like, you know, when I go into a ticket, you know, the one of the biggest things I always recommend uh remind folks is this is not a one-off conversation. What have they talked to us in the past about? What else is going on? What have we prescribed and offered? Because at the end of the day, you can't just use the same macro. They'll catch you on, like chat on quickly on that one, right? You can't just use the old approach when something actually is something new. And so it really forces us to take a step back and figure out what are we doing for this person and what have we done collectively and making sure that we're still supporting them the right way.

Charlotte Ward: 7:32

Yeah. Um how do we ensure that a support professional or indeed a medical professional, if we dive back into that uh uh analogy into that metaphor, um how do we ensure that they have all of that context? I mean, it strikes me as something that, you know, if I if I was a frontline support agent, I I've only got so much time before that. I have to hit the ground running in that conversation. I'm not gonna sit there and read this person's medical history. And I think actually it's really an interesting parallel, like when somebody comes in some ways to the emergency room to allude back to my conversation with Ethan, but but you know, comes into any care provider in the community, whether it's a uh like some sort of health advisor, whether it's a walk-in clinic, or whether it's the local pharmacy, or uh, you know, a I don't know, I don't know, any of these kind of classes, or you know, there's there's so many, so many places you can go and get medical advice and care. And similarly, when somebody comes to me as a support agent, I don't necessarily have access to all of their context, all of their health data and background. Um and and B, I definitely don't have time to read it.

Jason Yun: 8:48

For sure, for sure. You know, I think there's a there's a fun couple of studies I saw where there was a lot of red flags about new doctors who are trying to go into communities, serve these patient populations, and they realized they weren't trained on some of the basic fundamentals. And when people were trying to figure out like what happened, and they're like, well, we're training these folks in hospitals. We're not actually training our doctors in the community, they're not meeting these individuals, they're not understanding their problems. I think very similar to support. If we kind of put the blind sides on our ages being like, hey, these are the 10 problems, this is what you have to do to solve them. We then kind of forget the realm of what else could they be touching. We kind of also forget what else could the customer be experiencing because at that point we're not asking the leading questions. We're not trying to make sure that all the boxes are checked. We're just more like, hey, here's that one problem you find for me, and that's all I'm going to focus on. And so, really, the training comes to, I think to your point, it's not about trainer individuals for support to be like, you know, read everything. I think the biggest part is how well do you understand your user as a general community and how well do you understand your product?

Charlotte Ward: 9:50

Interesting. Interesting. Yeah. So you so do you think this is like more about immersion in that community, that product?

Jason Yun: 9:57

Absolutely. Because I think the biggest thing that I want to make sure that people take from this conversation is that you always have to question did you build trust? Did you build your trust between your customer base, your support team, and more importantly, your support team to your management leadership? Because at the end of the day, if we're not there providing the right information, the right updates, the right protocols to really deliver to our teams and also listening back, what are they experiencing? What's not working for them? What are some great suggestions and ideas? Then we're really not solving anything, right? It's more of that spinning wheel of problem problem now, as opposed to what are we doing to actually process improve? You know, what can we do to make things more efficient and more effective with experience?

Charlotte Ward: 10:40

Yeah, yeah, absolutely. I and I think like experience is definitely a big part of it, isn't it? You know, it's um the the trust comes with, as you said, like providing the right answers, like actually like being being accurate in the information you give. Um but I I think that there is, you know, also uh in order, like this is a ridiculous statement to make, but uh but in order to provide correct answers, you you as a as a service provider, you need training, you need experience, you need uh time to soak up that context and immerse yourself. Um but uh what else is there? I feel like there's more to trust than just being accurate with our customers.

Jason Yun: 11:27

You know, I I think the biggest parts, and I mean reflecting more on my experience at Lyft and Instacart. For context, Lyft is this amazing writer platform in the US and actually also, I believe, also in Canada and other places. And also for Instacart, which focuses on-demand grocery delivery. You know, we were actually responsible for supporting, in addition to passengers and customers, the drivers and the shoppers there. And the most important thing that I really learned is that you're right, it's not just about giving the answer, but I also feel like it was that that point of humanizing. I understand this is frustrating. Like the fact that, you know, you're mentioning that you are literally waiting outside and your customer is missing. You have obligations. And you know, here we are trying to work with them saying this is the policy. But I think the biggest part that we also have to figure out is, well, what are we going to do to make sure that we address the situation? But then also, what are we doing to circle back to solve this in the future? And one of the biggest things that I learned was that you always have to go back and make sure that there is a process change that you create because of that. Yeah, I'd be telling both the agent, but also the people impacted. They have full right to know that if I'm saying, hey, like I hear you and I want to make things better, I need to go back to them and really make sure that we're showing them that. Because then from there, not only did I show that no, I'm doing my job. But I think the other piece is building that trust of, hey, give me that feedback. I want to hear this, I need to see this so we can really make sure that we're learning from this.

Charlotte Ward: 12:48

Yeah, yeah, yeah, absolutely. It's it's really important to loop back. Um, and I think that um I think doing that enough times to an individual customer is great. That customer's gonna build that trust in you very quickly. But I think there's a visibility point to it as well, isn't there? If you're if you're in a community environment, literally in a community environment or a social environment, providing some sort of support or education, then then being seen to follow up is is just as important, actually, I think.

Jason Yun: 13:22

Exactly. And I think another thing, you know, we talked about this yesterday was how it's not these bimodal relationships of users, it's it's a bigger community. Like, so for instance, when you talk about, let's say, Instacart or lift, not only do we have these consumers and these contractors who are really helping to create a service, but we're also working with government agencies, right? We're working with companies, we're working with these other partnerships. And as much as I think many times people would like to think that they're you know illusionary, don't exist, they're also there. And they're really relying on people to be accountable and doing the right thing, right? And so I think the fact of us understanding, but also being able to educate and really understand well, what is each person's part? And more importantly, what is the impact that we have? Like, what do we truly do? Because I think as much as we focus on the positive, there are negative things that could happen that could destroy everything, right? And we can see those in a lot of those, you know, various court battles that we've seen in the past. But the reality is that in order for there to be progression, everyone has to acknowledge, well, who is a part of the system? What do they do? And then how to just make sure that we're really educating, working together to the right resolution.

Charlotte Ward: 14:25

Yeah, yeah. How each of those agencies or or stakeholders it interlock with each other and what they have agency over. Yeah, absolutely. Right. This this puts me in mind of, you know, those um, again, going back to the medical kind of field and care in the community, it puts me in mind of these very collaborative, like say neighborhood efforts or or social efforts on a in a you know particular zone where the healthcare provider teams up with the local pharmacy, teams up with uh maybe government agencies, teams up with charities and teams up with even actually like local neighborhood uh uh residents and improves the situation for a group of people. Um and and that's what this feels like to me a bit. This this kind of support in some ways feels like identifying all of the interlocking parts and bringing them together around a common cause. And I think that that common cause is is something that can be very visible. And I I think that's what I'm taking from what you're saying.

Jason Yun: 15:31

Absolutely. And I and I think you know, for many of us in support, it it's so easy to forget that relationship, right? And I think, you know, I think we have like the stereotypical story of, you know, we're the ones who are smiling, happy to get a call, kind of moving through it, but then we're like quickly gonna have to write our notes and move to the next case, right? Like we don't get a chance to breathe and reflect. But we have to remember that with our frontline teams, especially, they're the ones where the more context that we can create, the more relationships that we can create and define, not within just their user base, but also the people around them, the more that empowerment comes. And you know, I think taking a step back, no, if you know, just like a new patient see a new service, same thing with community seeing a new service, no one trusts these things off the bat. Right. I think, and especially customer service, they're gonna say, hey, it's your job to try to make me feel good about something, as opposed to actually solving things. And so, you know, I think when I reflect on, well, what are things that we can take from a community-based approach? Like, how do we like create this spirit of community into our support teams to make sure that we can move things forward? I think there are three things that people should always question. The first part is, does your team have context? Are you educating your team to really understand what they're saying, why they're saying it? What is that protocol process? Do they actually understand it as opposed to saying here are the steps? Um, the second part is do they understand their impact? You know, do they understand what they're providing? What is happening? What can they physically do to really understand? Well, what's my part of the ecosystem? And then I think the third piece, which is the most important piece, is accountability. Do people understand what we do has that impact when we do? And then more importantly, do we as leaders see the accountability within ourselves? Are we doing the right things in terms of how we're servicing our policies or protocols? Are we doing the right things and how we're communicating things? Because if we're not, then there was no point to any of this, right?

Charlotte Ward: 17:19

Yeah, yeah, yeah. I really like that. Um, and I I think, I think that the understanding, like that context is so often missed. Like we we do, as you've said, that first item you you you you gave there, um we've alluded to a couple of times in this conversation. It's so easy to fall back on a macro and just think that we're empowering our agents by giving them the answers to pass on. And we aren't. We aren't. Um and and if you give your agents a deeper level of empowerment and agency over the care they can provide, then the accountability that you talk about there has to follow, doesn't it?

Jason Yun: 18:01

Exactly. And really, when you provide guidelines, the whole intention is that they're guidelines. You're giving them space to really be creative and try to problem solve as opposed to saying, this is what I have to do. And I think as leaders, you know, we're so busy. Things are constantly changing. We're really struggling to figure out how do we communicate these to our teams when there's 20 different things going on and things are moving on. We have to remember that we need to calm down. We have to calm down, take a breath, and remember, we're all going to this weird world of digital communication. Now you think we've lost that physical touch that we're so used to. And so it's so important that we take a step back and really reflect are my methods appropriate? I mean, does it make sense to pin something in Slack and add here and throw emojis and assume that people are seeing it? Right? Does it make sense for me to say, here's you know, a 15-slide deck and that's more than enough for your training? Right? We really need to make sure and really go back to our community and say, hey, is this effective? What are your questions? What are other things that I can address that can really support you?

Charlotte Ward: 18:57

Yeah, yeah, absolutely. And I think like as a leader, you cannot be an extra point of escalation. You definitely have to be the one that actually brings things down a notch or two. Like you are you are like in this constant kind of again, back to weirdly back to the medical field, like this constant kind of yellow jacket mode, aren't you? It's like you're like and everyone brings everything to you, but you have to calm it down and yeah, appreciate everything and like loop back around on everything to exactly.

Jason Yun: 19:29

And I mean I've I've gone through so many charts for uh one of my studies, and it was always great because what I got to see is you know, we have the physician going through, seeing what's happening, giving the recommendations through all the entire team. And you're able to see how each team member, it doesn't matter if it's a social worker or the nutritionist, they're all having their different tactics. They're like, hey, this is the general what we're agreeing to. I'm gonna do my piece to make sure things are effective and making sure I'm also supporting everything else. And I think that's the same idea that we have here, right? Like as a manager, we're saying this is what I need you to do. And right Asking our team members to kind of work within what are the lines, but again, supporting each other, um, but also getting freedom to ask questions back, saying, hey, I don't think that this is appropriate. I think we should try this other approach and that willingness to actually make those adjustments for the sake of the patient, or in this case, the customer, I think is the best feeling that we can offer.

Charlotte Ward: 20:18

Yeah, I couldn't agree more. I couldn't agree more. Thank you so much for joining me today, Jason. This has been super interesting and a great follow-on from the emergency care that I was talking about with Ethan a few weeks ago. Um, and I just think there's so many interesting topics here around how how all of those interlocking parts fit together, how you have agency over your bit, but how it has to be part of the whole. I I really like that. Um, it's giving me a lot of food for thought for going back into work tomorrow. I can tell you that.

Jason Yun: 20:49

Thank you so much for the time. Love this conversation.

Charlotte Ward: 20:51

Thank you so much, Jason. Do come back and have another chat with me at some point, won't you?

Jason Yun: 20:55

Sounds lovely.

Charlotte Ward: 21:00

That's it for today. Go to customersupportleaders.com forward slash two three five for the show notes, and I'll see you next time.