234: Fireside with Valentina Thoerner

Charlotte Ward: 0:13

Hello and welcome to episode 234 of the Customer Support Leaders Podcast. I'm Charlotte Ward. Today, welcome Valentina Turner for a fireside chat. I would like to welcome back to the podcast today, Valentina Turner. Hello, Val. Nice to see you again. It's been a little while.

Valentina Thoerner: 0:40

Thank you for having me again.

Charlotte Ward: 0:41

I love this podcast. Oh, thank you so much. Me too. Me too. Loving it is a good reason to keep doing it, I think, and to keep having keep keep having people like yourself back because I love talking to you too. And it's been a while. It's at least last year. I know that.

Valentina Thoerner: 0:58

Oh, yeah, definitely. Yeah, and like the last year.

Charlotte Ward: 1:02

Maybe actually. Did we miss all feels like forever? Yeah, this this whole yeah, this whole 24, 25 months now is starting to feel like 24, 25.

Valentina Thoerner: 1:12

It's March 2020. Let's just like let's pretend.

Charlotte Ward: 1:19

Well, welcome back. Um, so while time is some kind of loopy, hoopy continuum that I don't understand anymore. Um, you have in some ways you're in the same place. You're uh still in Spain and you're still with Klaus, which is one of my favorite platforms. Uh, I make use of it just for full disclosure there. Loving Klaus. But would you like, for the benefit of our listeners, to do a little bit of a reintro, a little bit of an update on what's happening with Val?

Valentina Thoerner: 1:52

So yeah, I'm really happy to hear that that Klaus is one of your favorite platforms because as so far I have been heading product at Klaus. So I feel very responsible for what the product looks like at this very moment. Um, yeah, I have been product manager, then leader, then then head of product, empress of product, to be specific, for the last two and a half years. And at the same time, I am also in charge of the remote culture at Klaus and talking to everybody who is remotely interested in listening to me about quality and support. And we are now at a size that this is not a one-person job anymore. So I have to um hand part of it over to somebody who is hopefully even better than me, equipped to do the job. And between product and remote, I looked at the podcasts that I listen to, the communities that I'm part of, and I'm actually more personally invested in remote and in support and quality and support. So um we've decided that I'm going to focus exclusively on that while we are going to get somebody else to take over the product leadership. I haven't dropped um product right away because we're like now in this transition time, but I'm moving towards thinking a lot more about support, about processes, about how we can basically level up the voice of customer support uh people to have an impact on the product. Because if there's one thing that I've learned working in product, is that kind of product and support they need to work closer with each other. And product needs data to know what they can add on, and uh support leads also need data to know how they can make their uh support reps lives as easy as possible. And now I'm going to go into a rant because just want me to stop you there.

Charlotte Ward: 3:43

Take a breath then before we head into this. I'm with you. Like, I think product and support should work work closely together. And I've kind of said this for a long time that somehow in I'm I it might even have been the last time I spoke to you that I said this. So I am I am very repetitive, like let's face it. Like, but I I I sort of have this visual somehow of sucking pain backwards into a company. So so I think from a sales point of view, pain in your like pain in, you know, the the latter stages of the customer journey often begin in sales. And I think if success is having issues managing a client, I think that can often be like sucked back into fixing things in the sales process and then how you source prospects and what your ICP is and things like that. And I think similarly the same is true of um the relationship to the product, the experience, the the user experience for a customer as well, in that customer pain is brought to support and support should take that to product. So you're moving it further and further back in your organization. So and that relies on all of that information and data, doesn't it?

Valentina Thoerner: 4:58

Yeah, because the also the thing is because there's usually a lot of customer support uh reps. So how do you actually make sure that you're not anecdotally fixing stuff for the customer who was obnoxious enough to come back and back and back, yeah, and actually make sure that you you get input from like everyone. And sometimes it's like you hear if you talk to a lot of support people, like the same story comes up over and over again, and then you're like, okay, maybe I should investigate that. And then you look at hundreds and thousands of support interactions in your in your help desk, and you're like, I don't even know where to start. And like, but this information is super valuable because as a support lead, maybe you figure out oh, if we just take this macro away, or if we change this macro, or if we change this process, then things can go smoother. Or sometimes it's okay, this new sign-up for this new feature is so chaotic that no one has figured it out. So let's talk to product for this to see if we can improve UX or do something different with it. And the knowledge is all in there. You just need to find it, and the finding part is kind of the difficult part, like the finding it and then making sure that it gets escalated to the right people and that the right people actually want to listen to it because it's one thing to have the information, and the other is that then somebody actually acts on it.

Charlotte Ward: 6:25

Yes, yeah, and and is able to translate it and give it the appropriate priority. Because actually, you said quite a few interesting things there, and I wish we had time to just spend 20 minutes on each of them because I'm sure I can. But there's a couple of things I want to pull out. What one is um that you talked about uh, you know, the this overwhelming amount of data, and as a product person, like how do you even begin to filter it? And I think I think that's that is you know, that quantification of the data is super important and classification of the data is super important. And I've had people come on the podcast and talk about tagging, and I'm very passionate about like really um a strong tagging taxonomy, which is quite a rigid way of doing it. And I know it's not very, very uh trendy right now. We're all about like the dynamic tagging and the AI tagging tools and all of that, but I think sometimes there's nothing better than a person to say this is really what this thing is, particularly with very complex uh platforms, such as where I'm I am now. The trusting an AI feels, I mean, I'm I'm a control freak anyway, at the best of times, but trusting an AI to figure out what the actual challenge is here that this customer has. Um and then to and then to do that at volume, I don't know if I have that level of trust in AI yet. So we we have a really strong tagging taxonomy, which gets a lot of that data like you make it filterable and classify classifies.

Valentina Thoerner: 7:52

Yeah, exactly. And I mean, every every single customer support interaction is seen by at least one human, which is the person who answered the conversation. So if you can make sure and if you can put it into your system in a way that a tag will be added before that conversation is closed out or abandoned or whatever, then you will like you can get an 100% coverage with through your tags. And I like to call it actually classification because I think it's very important that the classification of problems or even of the problem area is the same across the company. So that support uses the same classification that sales uses, that the QA specialists use, both for support but also in the engineering QA QA, that everybody knows like which stage this problem comes up in and how to talk about this problem. Because otherwise you end up having parallel conversations that could be solved with the same thing, but because people don't understand that this is actually the same. Like that's why classification is so important and why it's something that should not only be discussed in support, but with the wider company.

Charlotte Ward: 8:58

Yeah, I couldn't agree more. I couldn't agree.

Valentina Thoerner: 9:01

So many things should be discussed with the wider company, not just in support.

Charlotte Ward: 9:04

Yeah, yeah. And getting those feedback loops going, it can take a few kind of hard pushes of the bicycle pedal sometimes, can't it? But once once you've once you've got a few, you know, once you've got a few cycles of it going, it becomes much easier. It's just you just need to put the effort into develop it. Every all sides need to buy into it, and you've got to run it a few times. And once you've run it a few times, then it starts to make sense and it becomes a bit more second nature and it freewheels down the hill. If we're still on the bike, it's freewheeling or something. Um, yeah, so I like that data and classification is a big piece. Um, but you said something else as well about um investigation, you know, which I think it's uh sitting on the support side of the fence, it's easy to kind of think, I've just got all this data. I'll just give it to you. Like, and we do have loads of data, like, and I can give you quantified data and classified data and everything else. So surely as a product lead, all you have to do is take that, lift it, and go and fix it. Is that a bit simplistic?

Valentina Thoerner: 10:11

Yeah, I mean, uh, technically, product people have access to all the data, but even with a robust classification, like what has helped us a lot internally at Klaus is actually that we have a bi-weekly meeting between uh customer support and product, where sometimes customer support people can just scream at product. We're like, why the hell is this still happening happening? And the other way around where product can ask, hey, I think we need we need more input from you with this feature. What are the things that you've seen? And the big problem there is that there is a lot of knowledge in the customer support people's heads, but it's a little bit like Google. Like if you ask the right questions, you're going to get the right information out of their heads, but you have to know the question that you're asking. So if you ask your customer support organization, so what would customers like to have? You're not going to get anything actionable. Yeah, external. But if you ask, has anyone had specific problems with this thing? Probably somebody will pipe up and be like, I think I remember there was something. And that is where the tagging system or a general, like a good searchable system comes into place that you then can find those conversations because there's no nothing more insightful than actually finding the conversations that give you insights and reading those conversations and not relying on a summary from somebody who's heard it from somebody who already agglomerated data from elsewhere. Like, but in the end, actually going back and reading through like five customer conversations that had exactly that problem so that the product side actually understands what is the pain that we are trying to solve. Because product work is not feature development, product work is solving customers' problems. Like we want to take pain away from people.

Charlotte Ward: 11:59

Yeah, yeah. Um, I I think that um is interesting because uh talking about getting it out of support people's heads and then using the data to validate it, um, and and then like validate it and then go one day layer lower again and look at the verbatims and look at the actual pain is is is super interesting because I think it's um what you've what you've taken is a trigger for an investigation. And and I think actually I think the same can be said of the data though as well, right? It's it's it's also if you've got the data, you can pretty much heat map it. I know that's what we do. Like we've got red spots on bits of our tagging, like as we look at the data over time. Um, oh here's a it here's a red area. We should probably look at that. Lots of customers are doing something there. Um, and like and then like directly deep diving as well. So I think I think there's a lot of like you can attack it from both sides, can't you? And actually the validation can happen in both directions, I think. Um and and then I think um the when we think about sort of sucking that pain, I really should find a different metaphor for this, but bringing that bringing bringing that pain further back into the organization. Um, so from our customers through support to product. What what else have you kind of noticed and and what else if it happens, like particularly where you are now having experienced both sides of it, um, and in other organizations as well? What what are what are the other mechanics at play, do you think?

Valentina Thoerner: 13:34

Communication is key, and not so much communication between people, but the way how you phrase and make sure that the pain is moved across the organization. Because if you tell anyone in any position this is not working, the first reaction will be, it wasn't me. Because like no one likes to be criticized or and very often it's not a one person, but it's like a process that's broken or like a logic that's not as logical as we thought it was, I don't know, two years ago or something. So like uh going making it really clear that whenever a pain is brought up, even though I'm talking to you about this, I'm not blaming you. Even if you are the product manager or the salesperson who promised something that isn't quite what we are actually selling, like and taking making sure that people can actually accept this as feedback, as like information about what they can change or what should change moving forward, because otherwise, you always you're basically trying to swim against the current because you have to convince somebody who has directly gone into uh directly gone into defense of something. And somebody who is in a defensive position is never going to like brainstorm with you how something could be done better, and because support is very often, especially if there are bigger pain points around, it's a high stress situation.

Charlotte Ward: 15:05

Yeah.

Valentina Thoerner: 15:06

So for both sides, like we need to kind of work on the empathy from the support side that the product thinks in long cycles. So very often, even though they want to change your problem today, they probably need six weeks to even think about how to solve it. And on the flip side, product also needs to understand that this person that is bringing you their pain has been screamed at in written form, but in some way or the other, like already 10 times about the same problem. So, like somewhere all this frustration needs to go, and sometimes it comes out in these conversations. So it's kind of like an empathy exercise from both sides to understand where the other person is coming from.

Charlotte Ward: 15:50

Yeah, that's super important, I think. Um, and I remember you talking about the different cadences in product last time you were on what you just said there about the cycles, that that was one of the biggest aha moments I had on this podcast where where I thought, oh yeah, oh yeah, like customers are coming to us every week. But that might be a quarter's worth of work or two quarters worth of work, or or you know, yeah, and depending on the organization.

Valentina Thoerner: 16:18

I mean, if you have a hip growth SaaS that's like is agile and they have releases every week, maybe it's only a couple of weeks. But if you have somebody with a fixed release cadence that's once per quarter or once per half a year, at least those companies exist. Like there are companies who do releases once every half a year or once every year.

Charlotte Ward: 16:37

Or you've got extra complexities, like it's a it's a re-architecting of something, or there are security implications, or what like, or certain, you know, um policies or certifications that you have to frameworks you have to work within, like all these, all these other considerations. Um see, and you can forget that as a support person. You definitely definitely can. Um I do you you brought to mind um something that I learned and have almost forgotten. It was so long ago. But when but when I was um when I was on the frontline at Oracle, uh back in the mid mid-ish mid-ish 90s, um, I uh I uh we used to provide support for Oracle consultants, Oracle professional services who were on customer site, uh on-prem, doing professional services work for customers, pretty high stress situation already when something goes wrong. They would call into support because we would provide support for them as well as our customers direct. Um, and I just remember, like in my first few calls with our consultants, feeling really prickly with them because they were, you know, it's like they were just they were clearly stressed, but they were taking it all out on me. And it's like this wasn't my fault, you know, it's your typical kind of support for support person, it's not me. I'm just here, I've just picked up the phone to you today.

Valentina Thoerner: 18:07

And on the phone, it's wow. I mean, in in chat, you can kind of on the side let your frustration out with a word colleague or take your stress ball really, really, really strong into your hands, but on the phone, like that's like a whole level of stress.

Charlotte Ward: 18:24

Yeah, yeah, yeah. I did phone support for three and a half years. It's an interesting place to to be in that kind of environment, deep, like very technical phone support. Still need to still need a breath on it. Um, but but yeah, I remember um actually I got talking to a consultant, um, I don't know, I a few months in, and he kind of just filled me in. Like I hadn't had that realization. But he's like, well, you know, when we're on the phone, like we're relying on you. We know you've got the expertise, blah, blah, blah. But but this is the situation we're in. And of course, like there, you have to remember the customer's in our other ear, kind of going.

Valentina Thoerner: 19:03

Yeah, you know, and the client is probably like physically in their other sitting next to them. Exactly.

Charlotte Ward: 19:10

So, and that was when I realized I should just take a breath with consultants. And I and I think like that that is exactly what you're talking about. I mean, it is empathy, but like understanding you don't have the whole picture of all of the stresses that somebody's under. Um, and uh, and and obviously you don't have like that kind of um transparency into their own processes and everything else. That's that's all there are there are lots of considerations that we just don't understand. So, so yeah, beginning to build that understanding is is a big early step to progressing those cycles, isn't it?

Valentina Thoerner: 19:47

Sometimes I actually think that customer support people get so much better over time with their job, not only because of their experience they get on the job, but also that as you get older as a person, You kind of figure out well, I mean, at 20, we all have the world figured out. Like we know how this works.

Charlotte Ward: 20:07

I knew everything.

Valentina Thoerner: 20:08

Exactly. And then, like, as you go on in life, you realize that there's like more situations than the one that you think is the correct one. And so you kind of end up getting more extreme on some of your opinions, but in other cases, just understanding that this is how you view the world and other people view the world differently. And I think this translates very easily in support. And while also uh more senior support people, because of their age, they can often bring in like um a kind of life experience that you can't have when you're 20. Not because you don't want to, but because you'd like you still have a lot of life to live.

Charlotte Ward: 20:46

Yeah, yeah. I think that's very true. I think that's very true. Well, now suddenly I feel very old. No, I've got I've got I've got a few years on you, Val. I really have. Um you don't look a day over. I was I was about to be facetious.

Valentina Thoerner: 21:05

I was gonna say a day over 39, but actually, like this whole when people tell me you look, and this is completely digressive. Feel free to cut that out of the podcast. I hate it when people tell me, like I don't hate it, but when people tell me, oh, but you don't look older than 35 or 32 or whatever, it's like, why is it bad that I look like my 40? Like I'm very happy about my love wrinkles, and that I have like this, I'm frowning at you, I'm judging you on my face sometimes. Because it kind of no one says to men, you look you you don't look 50.

Charlotte Ward: 21:38

I know, I know women it's to be honest. Sometimes I do, sometimes I do. Sometimes I go the other way. Like, you know, you you look you're you're only 28, you look 52. What's going on? But yeah, you're lovely.

Valentina Thoerner: 21:52

It's but yeah, I'm I'm I'm proud and 40. And I mean I've had a lot of experience these 40 years, and I'm like, I hope I have another 40 to like put it put another like as many experience on top of it.

Charlotte Ward: 22:07

I um uh this is this is straying way I'm I'm gonna keep this in by the way in the podcast.

Valentina Thoerner: 22:13

This is straight, strange. I expect everyone to say happy birthday on the 14th of February, Valentine's Day. Don't forget that.

Charlotte Ward: 22:20

Oh, of course it is. I forgot, yeah, of course. Yes, your day. I was I will I'll I'll send a little happy birthday through the ether. I'll try and remember. Um, but you've just put me in mind of uh you know being proud of your the the experience showing on your face and everything, which it it doesn't. I know you don't want to hear that, but it doesn't. Um but um it's a zoom touch-up. It just reminded me there was a DJ, a disc jockey, a radio presenter, if you will, for in the UK back in the day. And I saw him give an interview many, many, many, like probably a few decades ago on TV in the UK. But he said the most beautiful thing about his wife, and I just it I remember this to this day. He said him, they'd been together for quite a long time by then. And he said, you know, people have sometimes commented, you know, uh about you know, how oh, his wife's aging gracefully, isn't she? And you know, um, but she definitely like she I can't remember exactly what the wording was, but the implication was his wife is getting older, she's not the the beautiful young thing she once was. And his he said, my response is always the same. It was, I love the lines on her face because I know everything that put them there. Oh, that is so wholesome. Isn't it lovely? Isn't it lovely? Doesn't it just leave you with a warm glow?

Valentina Thoerner: 23:42

Yeah.

Charlotte Ward: 23:46

Oh, yeah, this is what it is. Yeah, yeah, yeah. Well, I think that's a happy note to finish on, but absolutely yeah, let's wrap up there. Listen, Val, thank you so much for coming back. Let's not leave it, however long this weird time loop thing was that we're in was.

Valentina Thoerner: 24:03

I'm going to put a reminder into my calendar now to reach out to you. So you don't I don't have to wait until you you're like, I where who wants to come? Who wants to be here? I'm going to go to ping you next time.

Charlotte Ward: 24:14

Please do. I would love you to come back sooner. Um and and let's do that. Let's get it in the calendar as soon as we can. Thank you for joining me today, and uh soon. Oh, you're more have a great weekend. You too, you too. Have a good one. Thanks well.

Valentina Thoerner: 24:30

Bye.

Charlotte Ward: 24:33

That's it for today. Go to customersupportleaders.com forward slash two three four for the show notes, and I'll see you next time.